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to ask why people still do not believe that Islamophobia doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t need an official definition?

332 replies

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 00:43

This is a question for the general public , After the recent events , where a horrific unimaginable event that has left a community and parents shattered , reeling from the loss of their babies - the first thing that a significant group did was to attack who they thought were to blame.
and it was the Muslim community.
without verification , confirmation , the hatred was palpable -it was always there.

As a muslim ; every time something like this happens, I know all of us pause and are frightened whether the perpetrators are Muslim and - when they are not - then there are no fingers pointed to whether their religion is to blame for their actions.
the entire community isn’t put to trial.
I am so sad for the senseless loss that the parents and families are going through.
My heart goes our to them,
as my friend who is a hijab wearing Muslim said earlier today -thank god he wasn’t Muslim otherwise they would have come and killed us in our sleep. It hit me to the core how much some people hate us?
I feel this is an injustice to my 70 year old mother who prays 5 times a day, loves her god and has not harmed a single person in her life , my sister who is a confidant professional woman but will not travel out of multi cultural areas for fear of being attacked.

still the government refused to put an official definition for Islamophobia?
having grown experiencing huge levels of it in the early 90/ , I feel that those that do not believe that the Muslim community are hated by other for simply being Muslim are just ignoring it or are part of the problem .
I feel sad for my children , who don’t speak the language their parents speak, only belong to this country but look visibly different and belong to a religion that is hated so much and the government can’t protect them.

OP posts:
Vizella · 03/08/2024 12:32

What is the point in commenting honestly on a topic when the moderation is going to delete the comment? Where is the freedom of expression? Why is MN censoring opposing views?

I don’t think I will bother writing anything if it’s only going to get deleted for hurting someone’s feelings. What about MY feelings? My truth as a non-Muslim woman from the Middle East who is intimately acquainted with the religion and culture in question?

How are you a victim when your complaint can get someone’s valid but opposing comment deleted?

Before you all start attacking truth-tellers, go and see what Katherine Birbalsingh has had to endure or what Douglas Murray so bravely says. Before you embrace this crocodile tears of a culture/religion, take stock of what you are giving up in order to embrace this culture and its people who DON’T want to embrace you unless you convert to their medieval way of life that is obsessed with dying, sin and hell.

qwerty14 · 03/08/2024 11:48

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:50

@qwerty14 A working definition clarifies the issue so that governments and law makers can be clear on what we are talking about. Hate crime laws are not sufficient, as this thread is full of demonising tropes and stereotypes and so are other forms of media. If they were sufficient we would not have a society that tolerates the persecution of a minority. We can argue about dress, it is just an example of othering. The point is that the perpetration of negative stereotypes and untruths can lead to violence against that group, as demonstrated by recent rioters. Therefore we need to fully analyse how this othering works, name it and include it in our laws and policies.

The USA have 4 times the population of the UK. but because of it's free speech laws in the second ammendment they only had 11,634 cases of hate crime in 2022 compared to us.The UK prosecuted 145,214 cases in 2023.
We already have one of the most prosecuted populations for free speech violations in all Democratic countries and there are already many questions as to whether it is worth the output of time and resources.

The approach is that free speech is more important as it can become like the Stazi if teams of police are monitoring everything that we say, and we would become an outlier among Democratic countries by criminalising this.

I think that before you plunge millions of pounds of money diverting it from front line services tackling knife crime etc and setting up 100's of extra police enforcing social media complaints in offices then we need to see if the already existing Hate Crime legislation is actually working. The police sometimes are heavy handed while enforcing the legislation:

Hate crime can also be hijacked by activists such as the Trans Lobby pursuing Kelly J.Keen and Marrion Millar (below).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/04/gender-critical-feminist-charged-over-allegedly-transphobic-tweets

A 73 year old woman was tracked down by CCTV for taking a photograph of an 'anti trans' sticker that said 'keep males out of female spaces and arrested.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12473521/Retired-social-worker-quizzed-hate-crime-police-sticker-Stand-Trans-poster.html#article-12473521

A girl who posted a tribute to a boy who died in a road crash that she know lyric from Snap Dogg's I'm Trippin' using the N word as it was a song he liked was given an eight-week community order, placed on an eight-week curfew and told to pay costs of £500 and an £85 victim surcharge. She had to wear an electronic tag every evening for 3 months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-43816921.amp

A 16year old girl was arrested by police under hate crime legislation for saying that she looked like her 'lesbian nana' after the police gave her a life home, the girl had spinal disability sccoliosis and was autistic. She was roughly bundled into a police car and held in custody for 20 hours.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13117093/West-Yorkshire-Police-apologise-autistic-girl-lesbian-nana.html

PoppyBlack · 03/08/2024 02:17

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 18:35

Thank you for those that actually responded to the original question .

Looking at the thread, it seems it has been derailed and monopolised into an opportunity to bash women that wear hijabs with a thinly disguised veil of ‘concern’.
And that is a form of Islamophobia that I am talking about -
Those that have discussed why women are being controlled , being made to cover up would never care about women’s rights in other context, why other religions have head covering, turbans , clothing etc etc but it’s an issue if it’s Muslims .

muslim women as all women are not one homogeneous group, we do not represent anyone but ourselves , however this is not the topic of the thread.

If there was a working definition of islamaphobia ot whatever you want to call it , what do you think it should include?

How can anyone possibly answer this question when as you rightly ascertain, Muslims are not one homogenous group?! People are who they are. Respect and tolerance to all.

MauveCrow · 03/08/2024 00:09

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:50

@qwerty14 A working definition clarifies the issue so that governments and law makers can be clear on what we are talking about. Hate crime laws are not sufficient, as this thread is full of demonising tropes and stereotypes and so are other forms of media. If they were sufficient we would not have a society that tolerates the persecution of a minority. We can argue about dress, it is just an example of othering. The point is that the perpetration of negative stereotypes and untruths can lead to violence against that group, as demonstrated by recent rioters. Therefore we need to fully analyse how this othering works, name it and include it in our laws and policies.

Religion has been perpetuating negative stereotypes and untruths for centuries.

MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 23:46

Gallowayan · 02/08/2024 21:02

It's an idelogically tendencious term, which is used to gaslight anyone expressing legitimate concerns about islamic terror, and the threat to freedom of speech and democracy posed by islamic fundamentalists.

I am much more concerned about the Israelophobia, which is running rampant amongs the 'woke' brigade, and moslems, and my thoughts are with the hostages and their loved ones. Israel is under seige surrounded by hostile Iranian proxies. The fears of Israelis, and their supporters, are real and not part of a 'phobia'.

Edited

What a sad life it must be to have thoughts and sympathy for just one group of people at a time.

Me personally, my thoughts are with the hostages and their loved ones. It’s also with the thousands of innocent Palestinians slaughtered and their loved ones. It’s also with the families of the three girls murdered, and also with the Muslim community in the current climate.

But having such a limited amount of compassion in your life must make that difficult for you to understand. How sad.

Malvasylvestris · 02/08/2024 23:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

cupcaske123 · 02/08/2024 23:31

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:03

A definition could include:
a) derogatory comments about dress
b) stereotypes connecting Muslims with terrorism
c)tropes about Muslim culture as savage or uncivilised
d) tropes about Muslims wanting to take over the world
e) attacking mosques or intimidating the people attending
f) any verbal abuse or physical attack based on the victim being Muslim

Some of this is an attack on free speech. For example, someone voicing an opinion on clothes. Discussing Islamic fundamentalism and extremism and criticising cultures.

The rest is already covered under hate crime law.

Gallowayan · 02/08/2024 23:04

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 22:23

Please make your own post to discuss these issues .

No. Because my post is relevant, and you are being disingenuous to prerend otherwise.

This a public forum and I will post as I like. I suspect your definition of "islamaphobia" would be any opinion about islam you happen to disagree with and want to censor.

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 22:23

Gallowayan · 02/08/2024 21:02

It's an idelogically tendencious term, which is used to gaslight anyone expressing legitimate concerns about islamic terror, and the threat to freedom of speech and democracy posed by islamic fundamentalists.

I am much more concerned about the Israelophobia, which is running rampant amongs the 'woke' brigade, and moslems, and my thoughts are with the hostages and their loved ones. Israel is under seige surrounded by hostile Iranian proxies. The fears of Israelis, and their supporters, are real and not part of a 'phobia'.

Edited

Please make your own post to discuss these issues .

OP posts:
youve987456 · 02/08/2024 22:22

StepAwayFromGoogling · 02/08/2024 02:49

Paedophiles exist everywhere. Within all communities. What makes you think they are restricted to white, balding, middle age men? What a peculiar post.

I know they exist in all communities, just like one of most things exist in all communities. I was trying to make the point that when these idiots want to attack the whole Islamic community for something one Muslim has done (or not in this particular case), it would be like saying to them that because you are a white, balding, middle aged man (which if you look at the demographic of the rioters they are) then I could accuse them of being something because other white, balding, middle aged men are..

MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 22:08

Yourdemonsyourproblem · 02/08/2024 21:47

If I go mile end, east London in a skirt, I get stared at and dirty looks by Muslim women and cat called by Muslim men
No I'm not white either and I grew up a Muslim.

This is the type of reason why people don't like those who follow the religion or care about your woos.

I went to university in Mile End. I often wore short skirts. I am also a Muslim. My experience wasn’t like that at all.

My lived experience was different to yours so I can’t categorise Mile End Muslims like you do.

Gummybear23 · 02/08/2024 21:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yourdemonsyourproblem · 02/08/2024 21:47

If I go mile end, east London in a skirt, I get stared at and dirty looks by Muslim women and cat called by Muslim men
No I'm not white either and I grew up a Muslim.

This is the type of reason why people don't like those who follow the religion or care about your woos.

Sunshineandpool · 02/08/2024 21:43

Chucklit · 02/08/2024 02:51

Bull fucking shit, they are not tolerant. I've had my nose broken for "being a goth", been spat at in the face several times, been slapped in the face in the street, had someone rub a burger all over my face, been chased several times with my heart absolutely racing with fear, I've been pulled backwards by my hair. I was egged from a passing car while heavily pregnant. People here are not fucking tolerant. I am 34. The disgust towards my appearance is still happening. What I have described is nowhere near what people up and down the country experience due to racism.
Now we're in balaclava thug land. I physically turn my head away from them walking down the street with my daughter so that they won't spot me and target us. We can't go shopping in our local town centre because balaclavas on bikes are daily assaulting "normal" people and the police can't control how widespread it is even there, nevermind across our region. Our biggest park, people are wary of going to, especially after dark. Merseyside. And the town centre is Birkenhead. Friends of mine have had to get dentures fitted after a thug punched out their front teeth. For looking different.
Tolerant my arse. I’m sorry for the long response but there is no fucking way I can let that slide without speaking up.
Do not assume that the whole of the UK is tolerant. I hope I've made it clear that it is not. This isn’t just a problem here, it's all over.

That's dreadful. I had no idea it was so bad up there.

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 21:35

@3CustardCreams I think it's misogyny and sexual harassment, which is depressingly common. I am sorry you experienced that.

3CustardCreams · 02/08/2024 21:28

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:56

@3CustardCreams Terrible. Anecdotally I've had a hand down my top by a welsh colleague while others stood around and did nothing, an English boss who wanted me to sit on his knee, the threat of gang rape by a group of Australian men, been assaulted by a group of teenage Portugese boys, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think bad attitude from men to women belongs to just one culture.

Oh wow that’s awful.
I mean yes I guess maybe it could be more of a men thing than a cultural thing. But I’d never experienced it so overly until then.

Werweisswohin · 02/08/2024 21:27

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:03

A definition could include:
a) derogatory comments about dress
b) stereotypes connecting Muslims with terrorism
c)tropes about Muslim culture as savage or uncivilised
d) tropes about Muslims wanting to take over the world
e) attacking mosques or intimidating the people attending
f) any verbal abuse or physical attack based on the victim being Muslim

All of which could already come under hate speech.

Gallowayan · 02/08/2024 21:02

It's an idelogically tendencious term, which is used to gaslight anyone expressing legitimate concerns about islamic terror, and the threat to freedom of speech and democracy posed by islamic fundamentalists.

I am much more concerned about the Israelophobia, which is running rampant amongs the 'woke' brigade, and moslems, and my thoughts are with the hostages and their loved ones. Israel is under seige surrounded by hostile Iranian proxies. The fears of Israelis, and their supporters, are real and not part of a 'phobia'.

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:56

@3CustardCreams Terrible. Anecdotally I've had a hand down my top by a welsh colleague while others stood around and did nothing, an English boss who wanted me to sit on his knee, the threat of gang rape by a group of Australian men, been assaulted by a group of teenage Portugese boys, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think bad attitude from men to women belongs to just one culture.

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:50

@qwerty14 A working definition clarifies the issue so that governments and law makers can be clear on what we are talking about. Hate crime laws are not sufficient, as this thread is full of demonising tropes and stereotypes and so are other forms of media. If they were sufficient we would not have a society that tolerates the persecution of a minority. We can argue about dress, it is just an example of othering. The point is that the perpetration of negative stereotypes and untruths can lead to violence against that group, as demonstrated by recent rioters. Therefore we need to fully analyse how this othering works, name it and include it in our laws and policies.

3CustardCreams · 02/08/2024 20:39

Sometimes I do have concerns about non British attitudes towards women. When working in Scotland as a doctor - which is nowhere near as diversified as London and the south- I was always treated with the utmost respect by my male colleagues. Thereafter I got a job down south after completing my foundation years and it was the first time I found myself working as a doctor in a team of predominately male Drs and from places including Iran, Sudan, Lebanon. I kid you not - the following actually happened. On a ward round one day- some of these male doctors took it upon themselves to openly discuss my appearance and attractiveness on a quantifiable scale- with one announcing that I “pass” and am quite good - but I just need a breast enhancement. A boob job. They also used to conduct some ward rounds speaking Arabic to the point where some patients were visibly uncomfortable and complained to management. Who did nothing. These same doctors were applying for permanent residence after working for 5 years - on some occasions asking me to witness/sign their applications. I know that in Scotland I would never have been told I need a boob job by my male colleagues. I don’t know how to express concerns/questions regarding others cultural attitudes towards women - without people quick to jump on you as being right wing. So I said nothing and let the boob job comment side. I left that hospital.

qwerty14 · 02/08/2024 20:33

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:03

A definition could include:
a) derogatory comments about dress
b) stereotypes connecting Muslims with terrorism
c)tropes about Muslim culture as savage or uncivilised
d) tropes about Muslims wanting to take over the world
e) attacking mosques or intimidating the people attending
f) any verbal abuse or physical attack based on the victim being Muslim

It is already covered by hate crime legislation and to add further infringements to free speech seem to be unnecessary.Attacking mosques or intimidating the people attending, any verbal abuse or physical attack based on the victim being Muslim are covered by this already.

Once it has been implemented the police would be using all their time on policing twitter and social media for Islamophobia and less resources on tackling violent crime.

It would give one section of society a separate governance from another. For example a muslim would be able to make derogatory comments about the way a white girl was dressed without breaking the law whereas the other way round would be a crime.

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:19

I should add I'm not Muslim, so my suggestions for a working definition are not as relevant as those from someone who is.

VerySadCase · 02/08/2024 20:12

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 18:35

Thank you for those that actually responded to the original question .

Looking at the thread, it seems it has been derailed and monopolised into an opportunity to bash women that wear hijabs with a thinly disguised veil of ‘concern’.
And that is a form of Islamophobia that I am talking about -
Those that have discussed why women are being controlled , being made to cover up would never care about women’s rights in other context, why other religions have head covering, turbans , clothing etc etc but it’s an issue if it’s Muslims .

muslim women as all women are not one homogeneous group, we do not represent anyone but ourselves , however this is not the topic of the thread.

If there was a working definition of islamaphobia ot whatever you want to call it , what do you think it should include?

I'm sorry that the thread has gone off topic, OP.

As a non-Muslim, I don't really feel qualified to specify what should be in a definition of Islamophobia. However, I imagine that trawling through this thread would probably be quite a good starting point for compiling a list.

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 20:03

A definition could include:
a) derogatory comments about dress
b) stereotypes connecting Muslims with terrorism
c)tropes about Muslim culture as savage or uncivilised
d) tropes about Muslims wanting to take over the world
e) attacking mosques or intimidating the people attending
f) any verbal abuse or physical attack based on the victim being Muslim