Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome

If you want to argue against sex segregation in sport, there's nothing stopping you actually doing so @Tandora, but be honest about it.

She was beaten in the last Olympics by an irish woman. Can't be that much of an advantage.

Lots of people have health conditions that preclude them doing everything they want. DSDs may be just one more.

People who have a massive advantage over every other competitor as a result of having been incorrectly sexed years before should not compete with women.

In the occasional case where it comes a s a surprise, well that’s very sad, rather like discovering another health condition that means you can’t safely compete.

It certainly doesn’t mean you can batter women in the ring, displace women from teams and podiums, and basically cheat.

Neither should we allow unscrupulous recruiters to scour communities for men with DSDs to allow them to dominate women’s sports.

Copied from another thread.

Feel free to educate yourself OP....

Good luck with that one!

If a person is totally unaffected by male hormones and their body doesn't respond to testosterone at all so they had no male puberty at all then I agree that their chromosomes are irrelevant and there is no harm done if they compete in the female category.

A male person whose testosterone has been deliberately lowered is certainly not in the same category.

There are a huge number of different DSDs with an enormous range of symptoms and effects and for many of them it would be totally inappropriate to treat them in the same way. E.g. with some the hormone levels and musculature are all well within the range for a normal male, it's just that the genetalia developed inside the body rather than externally - and it's entirely ridiculous for someone in that category to be treated differently from any other male except in a context where external genetalia are required (generally not applicable in sport)

Using the exceptions which prove the rule is a rubbish strategy for trying to demonstrate men can be women.

We only know that CAIS is a DSD because the people affected have XY chromosomes but do not develop as expected. Internal testes with a short cavity where the vagina would be usually be found in females cannot be considered a variation consistent with the concept as sex as a spectrum because it's a useless reproductive strategy which is the primary function of our sex organs.

Stop pretending that the physiological sporting advantages of being a man are complex. Taller, longer limbs, bigger hands and feet, bigger hearts, bigger lungs, they oxygenate blood quicker, have greater bone density and muscle mass, narrower hips, no breasts.

Aside from all that, they don't have to deal with periods, pregnancy or the side-effects of contraception. All things that effect female performance.

yes but what is “the physiology of a man” precisely? What is the deciding factor that gives men a sporting advantage that needs to be accounted for? These are questions that are actually very complex, and not as easy to answer/ determine as people suppose. People typically say karyotype or gametes (as per a pp just above) are the one deciding factor , which is why I chose to highlight the example of women with CAIS, to show how this isn’t the case.
Again, I don’t know about the medical circumstances of those two particular athletes, I’m not sure this information is public, but this issue is much much more complex than it was being presented in that thread and in newspaper articles.

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Copied from another thread.

Feel free to educate yourself OP....

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581

Tommy R. Lundberg, Ross Tucker, Kerry McGawley, Alun G. Williams, Grégoire P. Millet, Øyvind Sandbakk, Glyn Howatson, Gregory A. Brown, Lara A. Carlson, Sarah Chantler, Mark A. Chen, Shane M. Heffernan, Neil Heron, Christopher Kirk, Marie H. Murphy, Noel Pollock, Jamie Pringle, Andrew Richardson, Jordan Santos-Concejero, Georgina K. Stebbings, Ask Vest Christiansen, Stuart M. Phillips, Cathy Devine, Carwyn Jones, Jon Pike, Emma N. Hilton

Perspectives:

The IOC framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations is misaligned with current scientific and medical evidence and offers insufficient protection of fair competition for female athletes within a female category. Also, it does not adequately engage female athletes, who are primary stakeholders in their sport. Male pubertal development results in large performance advantages in athletic sports, which necessitates a female category that excludes male advantages, to ensure equal opportunity through fair competition for female athletes at all levels of sport. There is currently no evidence that testosterone suppression in transgender women can reverse male development and negate male advantages. In contrast, there is convincing evidence that the male advantage persists even when testosterone is suppressed. As a result, sports face the uncomfortable reality that the inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories cannot be reconciled with fairness, and in some instances safety, for females in athletic sports. The IOC must reconsider its framework and revise the 10 principles to reflect scientific evidence and fundamental principles of fair competition. We also recommend implementing a system to enable female stakeholders to be consulted in this matter and to have their voices heard, recognized, and valued

Oh, the old Michael Phelps argument is being trotted out again. When it comes to swimming Michael Phelps has genetic advantages when compared to the average man; he does not have genetic advantages when compared to other elite male swimmers.

Generally larger stature, measurably higher in fast twitch muscle , measurably more slow twitch muscle, a larger skeleton on which to attach said muscle. Angle and width of hips which affects leg strength and position in terms of speed, larger cardiovascular system, better visual acuity, higher aggression as defined by testo level...... It's not really subtle

I mean you say that like they haven't got it wrong, which they have.

No need, they were told by many people who were qualified to comment on biology but they've been captured by activists and seem quite unconcerned about flushing their credibility down the toilet.

It shouldn't surprise us given how many, otherwise intelligent, people think women can have penises and men can get pregnant.

Women with CAIS dont go through male puberty.

The testosterone is there but their cells can't "see" it so it has no effect on their cells. Their muscles don't grow like boys do in puberty (or at any other time of life) because their muscle cells aren't affected by testosterone. Their bones don't grow like boys do in puberty because their bones aren't affected by testosterone. They don't get male-pattern body hair because their skin cells aren't affected by testosterone.

Testosterone cannot give them any advantage at all because their cells just ignore it.

You won't be the first,or the last.

Someone who knows the difference between men and women.

Presumably the people insistent that women with Swyer syndrome (most of whom have a uterus) are definitely men will no longer be objecting to “women and people with X” terminology then.

While people with DSD conditions absolutely deserve compassion and kindness, they do not have a right to compete in ways that make other people unsafe. The Italian competitor feared for her life. That’s not okay.

This.

Sorry meant to quote @Donotneedit

I’ll be sure to let scientific American know that they’ve got it wrong

You do that, they're controlled by mad activists.

@whattywhattaa
Human characteristics fall under a bell curve.
Elite female athletes and their physiology, be it big feet, long legs or high performing cardiovascular system are at one extreme of that distribution. It's why they excel at sport and the rest of us don't . Perfectly normal.

Men and their physiology does not fall within the distribution curve for women, because they are , you know, men.

It's not the same thing at all as some women being blessed with an athletic physique whilst others aren't.

Reported for threatening language.

“Anyone who could know a girl/ woman with CAIS in the real world, and tell her she is , in fact , unambiguously a boy/ man, because gametes, - well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist.”