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Original poster

Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome

262 replies

Tandora · 01/08/2024 17:22

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.
Inspired by the dumpster fire of a certain thread that filled up just now -
AIBU to share some information about girls and women with CAIS. Many of these women and girls won’t learn about their variation in sex characteristics until adulthood. Some might never know and not without the assistance of modern technologies (that can test , eg, karyotype). For cases of CAIS identified at birth, most individuals are assigned/ registered/ raised female. (Yes sex can be assigned).

Anyone who could know a girl/ woman with CAIS in the real world, and tell her she is , in fact , unambiguously a boy/ man, because gametes, - well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist.

The NHS recognises the existence of girls and women with CAIS , and provides medical interventions accordingly.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1429/

Yes these conditions are rare, but the more we learn about the biology of sex development , the more complex the picture becomes, as with most areas of science/ biology/ medicine .

nhs.uk

Androgen insensitivity syndrome - Symptoms

Read more about the symptoms of androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS), which vary depending on whether the insensitivity is partial or complete.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:31

Turophilic · 01/08/2024 19:29

Gender Test* is what the International Boxing Association called the sex testing that both boxers failed.

The IBA is quiet in the specifics for privacy reasons but here is their statement. Note competitive advantage.

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.

*As a feminist I’d say there is no test for gender as that is a set of stereotypes imposed upon people, not anything innate to them, but people lazily conflate sex and gender quite a lot.

Show quote history

There we go. No details what this test is. There is no scientific basis for a singular , objective, test to determine someone’s gender

OP posts:
Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:29

Cancermummy · 01/08/2024 19:12

I just want to say thank you for this thread OP. There have been some truly awful things said by people on other threads. The hatred and fear of trans people is now spreading to anyone who even tangentially fits that category.

🩷

OP posts:
Turophilic · 01/08/2024 19:29

Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:14

Please tell me what the test consists of, and the science that endorses it as an objective, valid and reliable method to test someone’s gender.

Edited
Show quote history

Gender Test* is what the International Boxing Association called the sex testing that both boxers failed.

The IBA is quiet in the specifics for privacy reasons but here is their statement. Note competitive advantage.

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.

*As a feminist I’d say there is no test for gender as that is a set of stereotypes imposed upon people, not anything innate to them, but people lazily conflate sex and gender quite a lot.

LoobyDoop2 · 01/08/2024 19:28

Cancermummy · 01/08/2024 19:12

I just want to say thank you for this thread OP. There have been some truly awful things said by people on other threads. The hatred and fear of trans people is now spreading to anyone who even tangentially fits that category.

Hear, hear. Thank goodness there are people with the courage to stand up and defend the right of men to beat women to a pulp and then claim the medals that were intended for those women. You are a beacon of hope in a cruel, cruel world that doesn’t always condone male violence against women as blatantly as it could.

nameynamenamenamename · 01/08/2024 19:28

Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:26

I absolutely did not say that 😂. Some of you appear to have some trouble with black and white reasoning . I said that black men are overrepresented in male sport and lesbian women are over represented in female sports. That’s an empirical trend. Sorry if it offends you!

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Yes, I do have issue with your “black and white” reasoning.

The suggestion that black men, as a group, have a genetic advantage over white men has long been debunked as racist scaremongering.

Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:26

nameynamenamenamename · 01/08/2024 19:19

Well, they also rolled out the old trope that “black men are better than white men at sport” so it’s not too surprising that there is homophobia in addition to racism.

Show quote history

I absolutely did not say that 😂. Some of you appear to have some trouble with black and white reasoning . I said that black men are overrepresented in male sport and lesbian women are over represented in female sports. That’s an empirical trend. Sorry if it offends you!

OP posts:
ditalini · 01/08/2024 19:25

Beth216 · 01/08/2024 19:16

The endocrinology of mammalian reproduction
David O. Norris PhD, James A. Carr PhD, in Vertebrate Endocrinology (Sixth Edition), 2021
4 Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome
A person with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome is a genetic male (46,XY) that lacks ARs. The testes are normal and secrete testosterone but do not descend from the body cavity. The testes may be removed, generally after puberty, to prevent testicular cancer in the undescended testes. Müllerian duct derivatives are absent because the embryonic testes also secreted AMH. However, the external appearance is that of a female because of the congenital absence of ARs in the tissues. This is an example of male pseudohermaphroditism.

If you have CAIS you are biologically male and your testes are internal but secrete testosterone. They may have female looking genitalia, they may choose to present as female but they are biologically male and will have the advantage of testosterone secretion.

The NHS link from the OP states that if you have CAIS you have XY chromosomes it then suggest you can be a girl with CAIS which is not genetically possible and makes no sense. It is talking about 'gender' rather than sex when it says 'girls' with CAIS I guess because it is totally captured in gender ideology.

No, they get no advantage from the testosterone secretion because their body is unable to use it (that's the androgen insensitivity which in this case is complete).

People with PAIS (partial insensitivity) do have some advantage.

montysma1 · 01/08/2024 19:21

Seaglassandchampagne · 01/08/2024 19:02

How far do you take this suggestion that there is no space for genetic differences in sport?

Eero Antero Mäntyrants, a Finnish cross country skier, had a congenital condition which increased red blood cell mass, increasing the ability of his blood to transport oxygen and therefore giving him an advantage over his competitors. Maybe he’s a bad example because he was also actually caught doping, but consider also Adam Peaty, who has hypermobility and double jointed ankles - both genetic advantages. Michael Phelps also has multiple double joints. Usain Bolt has a specific gene, ACTN3, which makes his muscles particularly effective at generating more power over short distances.

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Of course there are genetic differences in sport .
Elite athletes have generally won the genetic lottery physically and have the temperament to capitalise on it with insane training. That's why they are elite athletes and the rest of us aren't.

Genetic differences however are NOT the same as a sex differences.
Sex differences give men an advantage over women.

You are trying to conflate different things

Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:20

titchy · 01/08/2024 19:15

Now what if the body recognises testosterone a little, but not what is expected / typical for men (eg people with PAIS) ? Where is the cut off.

We see what you're doing OP with yourbwhatabouttery. Plus your sides of racism and homophobia. We've seen it all before. You're nothing new and have nothing new to say. You support males competing as females in sport. At least own it. Be honest with yourself.

These “I see you” , “I see what you are doing” posts are really tiresome. Participate in the substantive debate , respond to my points of argument , or don’t, let’s have a meaningful , productive dialogue.

OP posts:
nameynamenamenamename · 01/08/2024 19:19

titchy · 01/08/2024 19:17

They may well also be some physiological/ hormonal factors at play

Sorry what? Are you suggesting that lesbians are somehow not quite the same physically as straight women? Really? You've stooped that low?

Well, they also rolled out the old trope that “black men are better than white men at sport” so it’s not too surprising that there is homophobia in addition to racism.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 19:18

Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:14

Please tell me what the test consists of, and the science that endorses it as an objective, valid and reliable method to test someone’s gender.

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Show quote history

Well .... There chromosomes and theirs abnormal hormone levels.

Given we drug test to prevent drug abuse (and prevent harms to athletes) and unfair competition anyway, I don't see why this is controversial.

All we'd see is a deliberate attempt to game the system. Which would destroy women's sport completely. The only ones with medal hopes would be the ones with this medical condition.

If we continue to allow them to compete with female competitors we risk serious injury to female competitors too. But somehow you seem to think this is fine as long as we 'dont discriminate'. Harm is fine. 'Discrimination' isn't.

Yes we get it. Women are collateral damage and not worthy of protection.

Can you hear just how fucked up this is?

titchy · 01/08/2024 19:17

They may well also be some physiological/ hormonal factors at play

Sorry what? Are you suggesting that lesbians are somehow not quite the same physically as straight women? Really? You've stooped that low?

nameynamenamenamename · 01/08/2024 19:17

titchy · 01/08/2024 19:15

Now what if the body recognises testosterone a little, but not what is expected / typical for men (eg people with PAIS) ? Where is the cut off.

We see what you're doing OP with yourbwhatabouttery. Plus your sides of racism and homophobia. We've seen it all before. You're nothing new and have nothing new to say. You support males competing as females in sport. At least own it. Be honest with yourself.

Well said! 👏

Beth216 · 01/08/2024 19:16

The endocrinology of mammalian reproduction
David O. Norris PhD, James A. Carr PhD, in Vertebrate Endocrinology (Sixth Edition), 2021
4 Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome
A person with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome is a genetic male (46,XY) that lacks ARs. The testes are normal and secrete testosterone but do not descend from the body cavity. The testes may be removed, generally after puberty, to prevent testicular cancer in the undescended testes. Müllerian duct derivatives are absent because the embryonic testes also secreted AMH. However, the external appearance is that of a female because of the congenital absence of ARs in the tissues. This is an example of male pseudohermaphroditism.

If you have CAIS you are biologically male and your testes are internal but secrete testosterone. They may have female looking genitalia, they may choose to present as female but they are biologically male and will have the advantage of testosterone secretion.

The NHS link from the OP states that if you have CAIS you have XY chromosomes it then suggest you can be a girl with CAIS which is not genetically possible and makes no sense. It is talking about 'gender' rather than sex when it says 'girls' with CAIS I guess because it is totally captured in gender ideology.

titchy · 01/08/2024 19:15

Now what if the body recognises testosterone a little, but not what is expected / typical for men (eg people with PAIS) ? Where is the cut off.

We see what you're doing OP with yourbwhatabouttery. Plus your sides of racism and homophobia. We've seen it all before. You're nothing new and have nothing new to say. You support males competing as females in sport. At least own it. Be honest with yourself.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 19:14

And you haven't addressed my previous point about nations actively seeking those with medical conditions to get an unfair advantage.

It started to happen in athletics until the rules changed to prevent this.

Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:14

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 19:12

The one which they carried out and found they weren't female.

This isn't hard.

You are deliberately trying to be anti-science.

Show quote history

Please tell me what the test consists of, and the science that endorses it as an objective, valid and reliable method to test someone’s gender.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:13

FOJN · 01/08/2024 19:10

Participation in the Olympics is not a human right. Neither is competing in women's sports teams if you are not a woman.

People with XY chromosomes are not being excluded from sport, they are being denied entry in the wrong sex category.

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Did you read the OP? Karyotype doesn’t necessarily define what sex category you are in.
And I do think it’s a human right not to be arbitrarily excluded from sporting competitions because of an identity characteristic

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 19:12

Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:11

What exactly is a “gender test”. Point me to the science that says there is an objective, valid and reliable method to test someone’s gender.

Show quote history

The one which they carried out and found they weren't female.

This isn't hard.

You are deliberately trying to be anti-science.

sunflower1022 · 01/08/2024 19:12

Only just been made aware of this thread and have not read any of it…freely admitting that.

Just wanted to say: Angela Carini.

What happened today was beyond disgusting and farcical (just like many of the other stuff that’s happened in the name of being kind and inclusive) and I only hope that because it happened on the world stage more people’s eyes will have been opened to the absolute grotesque nature of it all.

Anyone who doesn’t have a problem with what happened today needs their head examined.

And call me all the names you like, I don’t care.

Cancermummy · 01/08/2024 19:12

I just want to say thank you for this thread OP. There have been some truly awful things said by people on other threads. The hatred and fear of trans people is now spreading to anyone who even tangentially fits that category.

Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:11

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 19:09

Here's the thing. If they continue to allow competitors who have failed a gender test to compete at women's boxing at the Olympics what is the inevitable outcome from that?

Some nations will actively seek out competitors who have this advantage, which will edge out women, women will give up the sport out of fears for their safety and/or we will end up with an appalling outcome at the expense of the health and safety of a woman.

So however we deal with this, none of those outcomes are remotely desirable.

It is a medical condition which causes lifelong issues to some degree. We should not create stigma about it but it should be recognised as such and then competitors with that issue compete, in the spirit of fairness, with others with similar issues.

There isn't a way to avoid this. The IOC could have avoided this situation if they had just kept the previous bodies ruling instead of completely abolishing the government body and introducing their own crazy ruling on this.

I hope the other women in the same category refuse to compete. Their sport is at stake.

What exactly is a “gender test”. Point me to the science that says there is an objective, valid and reliable method to test someone’s gender.

OP posts:
FOJN · 01/08/2024 19:10

Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:07

I’m being totally sincere. Just because women with VSC are overrepresented in women’s sport it doesn’t mean we conclude , they have an unfair advantage and must be excluded. There are lots of similar patterns with various demographic groups.

Show quote history

Participation in the Olympics is not a human right. Neither is competing in women's sports teams if you are not a woman.

People with XY chromosomes are not being excluded from sport, they are being denied entry in the wrong sex category.

Original poster
Tandora · 01/08/2024 19:10

ditalini · 01/08/2024 19:02

Jesus! That's desperate!

Actually, I'd love there to be research to investigate why lesbian girls are more likely than heterosexual girls to continue with sport as they grow. It's a much healthier way to be, both physically and mentally.

I'm guessing it's a social and community thing but you tell yourself it's in the genes if it makes you happy 😂

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I’ve no doubt there is a huge social, community element. They may well also be some physiological/ hormonal factors at play. As with all differences it’s likely to be a complex mix of environmental, social, potentially physiological factors.

OP posts:
GrumpyPanda · 01/08/2024 19:10

@OpizpuHeuvHiyo

If a person is totally unaffected by male hormones and their body doesn't respond to testosterone at all so they had no male puberty at all then I agree that their chromosomes are irrelevant and there is no harm done if they compete in the female category.

They still won't have to deal with hormone fluctuations, periods, and pregnancy so it would be very far from fair competition.

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