Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome

No they're not!!! Cheek swab tests to determine sex were discontinued in 2000 - they were in use from 1968!!

And apparently 82% of female athletes voted to continue them at the time, but were ignored.

No, I’m not. I didn’t know what type you’re referring to. I was talking about 5-ard, a DSD affecting males. You said what if they have “the type” where they can have a baby? I asked you to clarify which DSD you were talking about.

And, just to be clear, being female isn’t reliant on having a baby. Infertile women or women who are childless by choice are female/women.

If someone has a DSD and a fully present and functioning female reproductive system, they’d be female. But they’d only have a ‘mild’ DSD because DSDs usually affect fertility.

These genetic tests are only fairly recent. How far back shall we go?

No they're not!!! Cheek swab tests to determine sex were discontinued in 2000 - they were in use from 1968!!!

Are you talking about Swyer syndrome where a person is born with XY chromosomes but no sry gene, so no testicles, no virilisation via testosterone, no male puberty?

These women have a fully functioning female reproductive tract but no ovaries so can sometimes conceive and give birth via donor eggs and IVF.

If it's Swyer, then they'd be an absolutely bog standard woman in sporting advantage terms and none of this would ever have arisen.

Now you are just being pendantic. There has been cases. So what would you call them then? A man still?

What do you mean by “the type”? There are a number of DSDs. Many (most?) cause issues with fertility.

Ok but would that change if an athelete had the type where they could?

0.018% of people have a DSD. It is pretty rare.

No exactly but its as though everyone is jumping on like trans comoeo( which am
all against ) but this is completely different.

These genetic tests are only fairly recent. How far back shall we go?

www.boxingscene.com/misunderstanding-imane-khelifs-past-present--185133

It’s being suggested that Khelif might have 5-ard due to the way the tests are being reported. If that were the case, they would be male and wouldn’t be able to conceive or give birth.

She is not a man! She could potentially give birth and woman have.

Who says? We don't know the condition. Link please.

She is not a man! She could potentially give birth and woman have.

I would totally agree with you if was a man born and changed but she wasn't and I think you arw being disingenuous at best and abelist.

Apparently so. Ludicrous, isn’t it?

Oh for god sake, are some people still trying to convince us all that it’s fine for men to hit women?

you've created a thread about a thread
Seems MN is fine with this now so I look forward to being able to do the same in future.

They were excluded from boxing championships last year; a decision which the Olympic committee has called arbitrary.
I wonder what they think about their decision to let them compete now.

We wouldn't know if it wasn't for these tests. I wonder if it has happened in the past but been unaware as the person has female reproductive organs.

I also don't think that not fitting neatly into male means you get into female. I think the opposite, even if your DSD makes you weaker than other men and/or you think you are a woman, if you don't fit neatly into the female box you compete in the open category.

Male with unusual phenotype does not = female.

There’s no suggestion that either of these boxers have CAIS. The IOC seems to think their passports are enough, which is ridiculous.

People with DSDs need specific rules, eg the ones around Semenya and others with 5-ard, but basically no male person should be in a competition for females. The OP mentions CAIS. That’s an area of disagreement as far as I understand, but neither of these boxers are believed to have CAIS.

IMO, it would be better to release information - with the agreement of the competitor obviously - because that would stop the speculation. It would also stop blatant lies and propaganda, as well as the use of racist tropes.

I would be happy to agree that some people don't fit neatly into male and female categories.

I also don't think that not fitting neatly into male means you get into female. I think the opposite, even if your DSD makes you weaker than other men and/or you think you are a woman, if you don't fit neatly into the female box you compete in the open category.

Female is the protected characteristic and these boxers do not meet the criteria, it is that simple.

Every day, all over the world, people are receiving diagnoses that limit their life and what they can do. I don't see any reason why males with DSDs can't have their limitations spelt out to them as well - they'll cope.

But what about the rights of the other competitors to fight against other females? People will be excluded from elite sport for many reasons, maybe they need medication that is a performance enhancing drug, but it’s not one they can get a therapeutic exemption for. Should Russian athletes have the right to compete, I’m sure they all are not personally responsible for the war in Ukraine, what about their rights?

Khelif probably has a DSD. It is hard to believe that Khelif and his family, coaches and the Algerian boxing association and Algerian Olympic association don’t know that he has a DSD. It must be hard to have a DSD in a country where they aren’t routinely picked up at birth, however that doesn’t give him the right to fight against women. The corrupt IOC do have a lot to answer for in allowing this situation to even occur. A once in a lifetime sex test, would have prevented this. A check swab is all that is needed.

Sharron Davies’ book Unfair play, the battle for women’s sport is an excellent read. Sharron competed in the era of state sponsored doping in East Germany (and other countries) so was cheated out of medals by women who were pumped up on testosterone.

and contradicts the physiology of sex development , science, medicine, law and the self knowledge of women and girls living with CAIS.

Which specific laws were you thinking about? You make broad assertions so feel free to link peer reviewed research on the legal status of people with CAIS.

These areas of law are hugely complex as they involve an intersection of rights. Sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act and the ordinary meaning of the word would mean genetics.

Yes, I chose Klinefelters as a simple one to illustrate my point. It’s more difficult with something like PAIS where the presentation can vary. In those cases, judgement has to be used. Not just a ‘social’ judgement, but medical judgements about how the external genitalia will develop, removal of any internal testes, hormone treatment.

I think there are two separate issues an individual one and a societal one.

On an individual level people with CAIS should be free to live their lives in a way that matches how they present.

On a societal level redefining the concepts of woman and female to include people with XY chromosomes has implications far beyond CAIS, so the existence CAIS is only a small consideration in a very much bigger picture.