shocked my best friend voted Reform

Thanks @PoppyW1979 . I voted Brexit for very similar reasons to your Reform vote. I had watched the EC segue into the EEC and then the EU, without any consultation on what were great constitutional changes. I am a Clause 4 socialist and had listened to Tony Benn on the aims of the EC in 1975. He pointed out that it would impinge on parliamentary sovereignty. I believed him although (a naive 24 year old) could not see quite how it worked - I suppose I had an instinctive idea that the deal meant less agency for the UK. I voted No in 1975. My experience of the EU, and especially its treatment of union issues when they came into conflict with the right of establishment and the free movement of labour, alerted me to the idea that this was not an organisation that supported workers when their interests conflcted with those of capital, and I saw finally what I had instinctively apprehended in 1975: an neo-liberal cartel with crumbs for the majority whilst that remained cheap to do. So I voted Brexit (as did the majority of my family). On MN, whenever I say this I get a wedge of MNetters who assume I am a rightwing nut job, and totally ignorant of the benefits of EU membership and how the EU works. The only benefit I ever came across was having a shorter queue at immigration occasionally. Not one of my family have benefitted, even the 2 who voted Remain. I perceive the free movement of labour as a tactic to lower wages and also workers' rights across the EU and also as racist since it prioritizes white Europeans over other immigrants (a particular problem for the UK and its relations with the Commonwealth). A socialist has great difficulty engaging with the EU, which is neo-liberal in its outlook and pro-big business in its activities. It is notable that Brussels is very keen on identity politcs, which are divisive in nature.

Fair enough.

People who hold morally repugnant views are never going to be capable of understanding why others find them so repulsive.

This.
I was shocked when a friend I’d known for many years, made an anti-Semitic remark. Someone else had said that X person, nearby but not within earshot, was Jewish (there was a valid reason for saying it) and my very old friend said, ‘Ugh, Jewish’. Not loudly, but still….
I’d honestly had no idea.

Yes I read their manifesto and it promises a lot, but for the policy areas I know well through my profession, it is evident that their manifesto has very little expertise behind it. Most of their policies are unworkable in the real world and would cause unimaginable chaos and even more hardship for the general population. For example, just scrapping the retained EU laws in one go.

And there are some policies in there that would allow the wealthiest to be able to funnel huge taxpayer funded subsidies into their businesses. About the only thing I agree with it that we need to invest more in UK food production, for everyone’s benefit. But the rest of it is self-serving populist rubbish.

Remember that they can promise the world to the electorate when there is almost no chance they will be in power, and they will not be held to account.

That’s actually not the case. They are counted and included in the announcement of the results. Spoiled papers are an indication of voters’ dissatisfaction with all parties or candidates in their constituency.

votingcounts.org.uk/spoilt-ballot

It comes down to the border policies.

Australia is far from extreme, in fact it has a centre left gov. All countries are going to struggle with this until they work out how to resolve the issue.

Just listened to an interview with Sir John Major. He pointed out that the Tories only lost 5% of its vote to Reform. They lost far more to the Lib Dems and Labour. Quite reassuring, the British people are instinctively moderate and have little taste for extremism.

Genuine question: Do you think there is a traditional working class, still?

I think voting reform is a possibly protest vote about immigration. Also a mad urge to be back in the 1950s without any understanding of the economics and issues.

They'll just put a spoiled ballot in the bin. Does nothing, I'm afraid.

So she’s not even British but thinks she gets a say because she’s white? That’s putrid.

I voted Reform and shared this on social media. I voted for them because I actually read their manifesto and what they were saying seemed like common sense and was about changing things I wanted to see change. I'm not a racist. People seem to have an extremely negative view of the party which is not based on any facts, rather it is based on assumptions or generalisations by the hugely left wing media. I suggest you read Reform's manifesto for yourself and educate yourself. I shared my vote because I genuinely feel they were offering a decent solution and I wanted to challenge a very left status quo where we live. The result has been a shocking amount of alienation...some of which from close friends. I find it both very sad and also pathetic that people could be so judgemental and scared in their little cliques that they would lose people they care about over a different view. You should get off your moral high horse and open your mind to what Reform is actually saying. Trust your friend. If you like them and they are clever and a good person why would they be voting for a party that is either extremely cruel or racist or bigoted? You know your friend. Unfortunately you are being influenced by a one-sided media which is aggressively left and by the pressure to be woke and to be seen to be so. This country is in a mess and needs change. Believing immigration needs to be controlled does not make someone a racist. A racist is someone who hates people from other countries or of other religions.

In any case, I suspect for many Reform is a protest vote, which really has to be understood a little differently than a vote for someone who has a chance to win. It's not always about them having a fully formed manifesto, or sometimes even liking the balance of their policies.

Some would look back as far as Blair for the beginning of the decline of the NHS. Even though he seemed to make gains, he did it in a way that has, long term, strangled it through fees paid to P3 providers, even today.

But whether you see that as significant or not, there is a huge feeling that Labour has abandoned working class concerns. True, they haven't been in government, but they have acted as members of the opposition, they've recommended or opposed policy, had manifestos, and so on.

In the end, this is because Labour simply is no longer a working class party. It is the party mainly of urban middle class professionals - in many ways the dominant social class. The views of most LP supporters and members and MPs reflect that, Brexit and immigration being the most clear. Controlling movement of labour, and controlling economic regulation for the benefit of local labour - the "somewheres" - has always been a huge focus of parties of labour and the working class.

The fact that many LP supporters and members think that is a crazy idea, or more often are unaware of it, and their attitude to people who think it is important, makes it very clear that the LP is now reflecting the educated middle classes - the people who overall benefit from cheap labour, and porous borders, and are not attached to any particular place.

It's really difficult to see how anyone could see them as a traditional working class party these days.

27,478 as of 2022. But it depends on your income level, some will pay more in France, some will pay less. Someone on 78k in France will only pay a top rate of 30% whereas in England you will pay a top rate of 40%. Likewise if you earn in excess of £125k in England, you will pay 45% with no personal allowance, whereas France you pay 41%, no idea whether the personal allowance is removed in France and as I said, no idea whether there is an NI equivalent. If no NI and personal allowance, I'd say tax is lower in France as a general rule, not higher.

But that is interesting re: health costs. I suppose it would depend on the cost of the insurance to cover the 20/30%.

If you really like and respect your friend, this might be an opportunity for self-reflection rather than deciding she must sudden;y be beyond the pale.

What's more likely - that you haven't really understood why people make the voting choices they do, or you haven't listened with an open mind to people's social and political concerns? Or your friend has, all this time, without you being aware, been a really terrible person?

@Everanewbie you are only counting income tax. When you earn over £23,620 you pay 30% income tax, much higher than UK. For health services people in France have co pays. When you visit the doctor in France, the healthcare system will typically cover 70% of the fees and 80% of hospital costs, unless you have certain serious illnesses when 100% is covered.

I would be happy to pay more for decent health services. But Reform say they want a French style health service plus lower taxes. It is not possible. We would get a US style where it would be like the current NHS dentistry i.e. extremely hard to get NHS healthcare, so most people would be forced to go private.

Not sure this: www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/france/tax-in-france/
is much higher than UK rates @AvrielFinch . Much lower for lower earners and probably better for the higher earners too. Not sure if they have an NI equivalent of the personal allowance is eroded above £100k like ours is.

That could be said for all them.

Reform ignore that the French pay much higher taxes for their healthcare. Reform also want lower taxes. The manifesto is a load of shit.

Reform were looking at a health service more aligned to a French one, and I suppose a lot of people thought well if it works for the French why not here?

In all honesty if we are to continue to have a health service the amount of money wasted needs to be sorted. I have read on here from nurses who have said there's plenty of money but it's not managed properly.

I have read Reform UK's party manifesto. But it is strange to claim we can't understand Reform UKs policies without reading the manifesto. Although I suspect many who voted Reform have not read the manifesto. They don't realise it means the end of the NHS.

Yes I agree, its not down to Labour. But they must come up with solutions quickly as legitimately blaming the last lot is time limited.

But the point is that the deal for the working (and I do mean working, as in full time tax payers) class isn't looking too great at the moment. Many perceive that the governments priorities lie with people less deserving. Of course, reality is more nuanced the the recent rioting thugs are capable of processing, but the optics are pretty poor at times when you turn on the TV. The media and the politics it drives are obsessed with trans issues, we see people bending over backwards to not offend other cultures yet we decry traditionally English activities as somehow nationalistic, and after a day of graft only to see a record tax burden on them, they hear about another 10,000 refugees from pretty safe countries being put up in a nice hotel. And as the pp said, after all that you can't see a doctor or a dentist. So I really can see how people feel that the mainstream established parties are letting them down and are persuaded to vote for Reform.

I wonder how many people have actually read and party's manifesto in entirely tbh. And really it doesn't make much odds as they are quick enough to change stuff if they get into power