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Original poster

Confused about VAT and wraparound care

88 replies

billyjo · 30/07/2024 09:17

My DD goes to wraparound care 3 days a week. She's at a state primary but the wraparound care (for all the local primaries) and holiday club is provided through the local prep school.

She does things like football and crafts there.

I'm confused as to whether I'll now be charged VAT of these costs

OP posts:
Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:25

@MyNameIsFine she does one day a week. They do different things each day. My DD goes three days and on those days they do football, crafts, forest school - it changes termly 😬😬

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Marchitectmummy · 30/07/2024 17:25

There are two parts to the labour changes Vat and Business rates.

Business rates are currently charged at 20% labour wish to change that to 100%. The school will be able to choose exactly how they recoup that additional cost. I suspect they will look at who pays what and what can be increased without reducing attendees and will increase cost on that basis.

VAT is different, the government will choose who will now be VAT able. Its still up to the school to decide who ultimately pays for it, but some things will be potentially exempt.

The government have Issued their draft for this and frankly as expected it is an empty document thats been rushed to get it out as their sole focus is implementing it quickly which to do so in Octber the draft needed go be out now.

These are the documents anything else is irrelevant and interpretive. All could still change in the development.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-on-private-school-fees-removing-the-charitable-rates-relief-for-private-schools

VAT on Private School Fees & Removing the Charitable Rates Relief for Private Schools

Technical consultation on the VAT and business rates changes affecting private schools.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-on-private-school-fees-removing-the-charitable-rates-relief-for-private-schools

titchy · 30/07/2024 17:22

it says the preschool (ie. Nursery) of a private school is liable

No it doesn't. See 2.9

MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 17:21

billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:08

@TimmyTurtle

Without wraparound care I cannot continue to work. There aren't alternative providers in this area - the only choice is the prep school.

There aren't childminders here that do school pick ups.

I don't support VAT for any education but it looks like I'm going to be caught anyway even though my DD is at state school.

Please don't panic OP. The législation doesn't include wrap around care. It's only if your children do à football club, or something, that you might get caught.

titchy · 30/07/2024 17:21

If they're not being 'formally trained' in football they're exempt.

AlexanderArnold · 30/07/2024 17:21

Merryoldgoat · 30/07/2024 17:18

No VAT is to be applied of extras such as

nursery care
wraparound care
meals
holiday clubs
extra curricular clubs provided by a third party within a school

Only tuition fees and boarding fees.

That's not true - it says the preschool (ie. Nursery) of a private school is liable. And the situation re. wraparound care is not straightforward.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:21

AlexanderArnold · 30/07/2024 17:19

So if the kids sit around doing nothing (aka childcare) it's not charged but if they are playing sport, doing music or ballet, it will be.

I have kids at private school and tbh the policy is annoying but not the end of the world for me but these are some significant problems.

This is what my understanding is based on the technical note that was posted online.

Confused about VAT and wraparound care
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AlexanderArnold · 30/07/2024 17:19

So if the kids sit around doing nothing (aka childcare) it's not charged but if they are playing sport, doing music or ballet, it will be.

I have kids at private school and tbh the policy is annoying but not the end of the world for me but these are some significant problems.

Merryoldgoat · 30/07/2024 17:18

No VAT is to be applied of extras such as

nursery care
wraparound care
meals
holiday clubs
extra curricular clubs provided by a third party within a school

Only tuition fees and boarding fees.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:14

titchy · 30/07/2024 17:12

Just read the next page of the link you posted. 2.16. After and before school care not included. Confused

This is what confuses me that refers to
only if it is solely childcare. She does do football in one session which seems to be treated differently.

Very confused!

OP posts:
titchy · 30/07/2024 17:12

Just read the next page of the link you posted. 2.16. After and before school care not included. Confused

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:11

@MyNameIsFine the invoice is addressed to the private school

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Inthemosquitogarden · 30/07/2024 17:10

And added to this private schools lose their charitable status (and the vast majority really are not companies : there are no shareholders or anyone making a profit : the fees literally just pay for the running of the school and that’s it, supervised by a board of governors (who are volunteers)).

Losing their charitable status will likely mean that private schools need to switch from cost recovery charging to cost recovery for business rates.

so the cost of swimming/lamda/everything else the private school is used for by outside providers will go up as well as a potential vat liability

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:08

@TimmyTurtle

Without wraparound care I cannot continue to work. There aren't alternative providers in this area - the only choice is the prep school.

There aren't childminders here that do school pick ups.

I don't support VAT for any education but it looks like I'm going to be caught anyway even though my DD is at state school.

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MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 17:08

billyjo · 30/07/2024 14:52

😢

More money to find - I'm a single working mum there is no more money.

My DD goes to state school so not even the seeming target for this 😢

Are you sure It's run by the private school? If the organisation hires the facilities from the school, that's not the same thing.

Bunnycat101 · 30/07/2024 17:05

yowch- I always thought the legislation would need to be very carefully drafted and that Jan would be a rush job but surely the intention can’t have been to bring things like stagecoach into it. Thinking about it, we do ballet lessons at a private school too- the effects would be very far reaching if those sorts of activities fell under the charge as well.

twotonine · 30/07/2024 17:04

It's another reason why this policy is really very stupid

TimmyTurtle · 30/07/2024 17:02

Bunnycat101 · 30/07/2024 16:00

I hadn’t even thought about other activities provided using private school facilities just off the top of my head

  • we use a holiday camp provided at a private school
  • we have swimming lessons at a private school
loads of activities like stagecoach, rugby tots etc operate out of private schools.

I’d be very pissed off if my holiday camp fees went up 20%.

It's only fair that they do though. If you are benefitting from private school facilities you need to find a way to pay the extra or pull your kids out. Maybe some of these companies using private school buildings will end up folding as the parents can't afford the VAT and they won't have enough kids to make them viable.

twotonine · 30/07/2024 16:52

Why would you want state school parents like OP to have to pay VAT on their wraparound care which is the one that is provided for the local state schools, just how mean can you be

Fair's fair

FiloPasty · 30/07/2024 16:15

I also read the vat notes and thought the same thing. Awful all round, I just don’t think vat should be charged on education.
So music lessons and Lamda etc would be charged vat?
Our local provate primary rents out the hall for children’s birthday parties. Will they have to charge vat on that? It’s all very confusing.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 16:02

Bunnycat101 · 30/07/2024 16:00

I hadn’t even thought about other activities provided using private school facilities just off the top of my head

  • we use a holiday camp provided at a private school
  • we have swimming lessons at a private school
loads of activities like stagecoach, rugby tots etc operate out of private schools.

I’d be very pissed off if my holiday camp fees went up 20%.

My invoices currently don't include VAT. Do yours?

OP posts:
Bunnycat101 · 30/07/2024 16:00

I hadn’t even thought about other activities provided using private school facilities just off the top of my head

  • we use a holiday camp provided at a private school
  • we have swimming lessons at a private school
loads of activities like stagecoach, rugby tots etc operate out of private schools.

I’d be very pissed off if my holiday camp fees went up 20%.

StellaGreen · 30/07/2024 15:44

Most private school fees include lunch, books, after school and before school sport and clubs (some these run by the older students) some basic trips etc. Does this mean that the total fees will not be subjected to VAT but a portion of the school fees only?
How would they go about this?
I'm confused.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 15:42

Tarantella6 · 30/07/2024 15:28

They're going to have to write the legislation very carefully to avoid after school clubs, things like Stagecoach - anything Ofsted registered really. There could be a lot of unintended victims of this policy if they are not specific enough in the legislation.

You might find the prep school runs it at a loss as a charitable activity and they close it all together because they can't absorb the cost any more.

Please don't say that - I and the other working parents in my area really really on
it! 😢

OP posts:
Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 15:40

It's this bit that I saw quoted online that's made me panic a bit!

Confused about VAT and wraparound care
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