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Original poster

Confused about VAT and wraparound care

88 replies

billyjo · 30/07/2024 09:17

My DD goes to wraparound care 3 days a week. She's at a state primary but the wraparound care (for all the local primaries) and holiday club is provided through the local prep school.

She does things like football and crafts there.

I'm confused as to whether I'll now be charged VAT of these costs

OP posts:
MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 19:30

edwinbear · 30/07/2024 19:18

@cardibach the concept has been widely anticipated, but the detail only released yesterday, with an implementation in 5 months. I’m sure schools have run a number of scenario analysis, but with such a quick implementation, they’ll go with their ‘shit hits the fan’ plan. Which will mean closing ranks and prioritising their own first - as opposed to continuing to provide after school care for the local state schools. And who can blame them really.

It depends whether they're making a profit or a loss on the afterschool club. If they're making a loss, they'll have to halve their staff and limit it to their own fee paying families. This is more likely than the OP having to pay VAT.

edwinbear · 30/07/2024 19:18

@cardibach the concept has been widely anticipated, but the detail only released yesterday, with an implementation in 5 months. I’m sure schools have run a number of scenario analysis, but with such a quick implementation, they’ll go with their ‘shit hits the fan’ plan. Which will mean closing ranks and prioritising their own first - as opposed to continuing to provide after school care for the local state schools. And who can blame them really.

titchy · 30/07/2024 19:10

billyjo · 30/07/2024 19:03

@cardibach I'm not sure I could have planned for this - my child goes to state school, the wraparound care position based on the below isn't clear to lots of people and this is the only only after school care available at my primary and others in my area have access too.

I feel like I'm going to be caught in the cross fire really here.

You won't be. It's a holiday club. Childcare with activities. Not education or training.

Or is this another angle on the numerous posts about the same topic?

cardibach · 30/07/2024 19:03

billyjo · 30/07/2024 19:03

@cardibach I'm not sure I could have planned for this - my child goes to state school, the wraparound care position based on the below isn't clear to lots of people and this is the only only after school care available at my primary and others in my area have access too.

I feel like I'm going to be caught in the cross fire really here.

I wasn’t referring to yoUr planning, but the school’s. Look at the post I replied to.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 19:03

@cardibach I'm not sure I could have planned for this - my child goes to state school, the wraparound care position based on the below isn't clear to lots of people and this is the only only after school care available at my primary and others in my area have access too.

I feel like I'm going to be caught in the cross fire really here.

OP posts:
heavenisaplaceonearth · 30/07/2024 19:02

StellaGreen · 30/07/2024 15:44

Most private school fees include lunch, books, after school and before school sport and clubs (some these run by the older students) some basic trips etc. Does this mean that the total fees will not be subjected to VAT but a portion of the school fees only?
How would they go about this?
I'm confused.

I don’t think that’s right. In my experience lunch/meals are charged separately.

Marchitectmummy · 30/07/2024 19:01

absquatulize · 30/07/2024 18:58

Well other than asset stripping I can't see any other reason that private schools are being taken over by vulture capitalists.

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Close in your guess of asset stripping, its development opportunities that are bringing them in. Lots of private schools are land owners, whether that be land they use or land they don't. I know of a couple of large developers who are circling.

cardibach · 30/07/2024 18:59

edwinbear · 30/07/2024 18:48

Private schools have been told to ‘cut their cloth’ in the same way as state schools. So I’d imagine they will be looking very closely at a) whether they want to continue providing this service and b) if they do, increasing the fees to cover offsetting VAT for fee paying parents. It’s been rushed in far too quickly so schools may have some knee jerk reactions as opposed to having time to properly plan.

It’s hardly rushed. Labour have been trailing it for ages and it was pretty obvious they were going to win - and in any case it should have been planned for.

absquatulize · 30/07/2024 18:58

MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 18:57

Their aim is to make a profit 😂Good luck with that! 😁

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Well other than asset stripping I can't see any other reason that private schools are being taken over by vulture capitalists.

MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 18:57

absquatulize · 30/07/2024 17:41

In the interests of factual accuracy I would like to point out that half of private schools are companies not charities. Presumably run with the aim of making a profit.

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Their aim is to make a profit 😂Good luck with that! 😁

edwinbear · 30/07/2024 18:48

Private schools have been told to ‘cut their cloth’ in the same way as state schools. So I’d imagine they will be looking very closely at a) whether they want to continue providing this service and b) if they do, increasing the fees to cover offsetting VAT for fee paying parents. It’s been rushed in far too quickly so schools may have some knee jerk reactions as opposed to having time to properly plan.

CuntRYMusicStar · 30/07/2024 18:40

Just to mention so you can think about it, our school has a similar set up and has already said that it will consider increasing the fees of clubs/extra curriculars provided to external children in order to offset the VAT increase for their own pupils.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 18:37

@Marchitectmummy yes, I think the children from the school attend too

OP posts:
Marchitectmummy · 30/07/2024 18:31

billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:40

@MyNameIsFine

It's great they are essentially the after school provider for four local primaries in addition to their own children.

I wonder now if it's part of what they do for their charity status.

Do none of the private school children attend wrap around care?

My understanding is if it's a club that purely looks after children no VAT, if it educates in anyway, even if its arts and crafts it will be VATable.

Reason I asked if the private school children also attend the after school club, I'm not sure most would be happy for it to just fulfill childcare alone. Our girls omly stay if there is a club they wish to attend that evening, its an extension of their education albeit often a sport education.

StellaGreen · 30/07/2024 18:29

SheilaFentiman · 30/07/2024 17:47

My fees bill lists school lunches and trips separately.

Certain clubs are billed (largely to cover extra costs eg booking a climbing wall, I think) but many are not eg chess club.

So it will be straightforward to put VAT on the fees but not the lunches, say.

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Thanks Sheila, that's not the case for many private schools. I think the way of thinking is that if absolutely everything, including trips, are included in fees then those children on bursaries never have to miss out.
It's my experience that many schools do this.

SheilaFentiman · 30/07/2024 17:47

StellaGreen · 30/07/2024 15:44

Most private school fees include lunch, books, after school and before school sport and clubs (some these run by the older students) some basic trips etc. Does this mean that the total fees will not be subjected to VAT but a portion of the school fees only?
How would they go about this?
I'm confused.

My fees bill lists school lunches and trips separately.

Certain clubs are billed (largely to cover extra costs eg booking a climbing wall, I think) but many are not eg chess club.

So it will be straightforward to put VAT on the fees but not the lunches, say.

titchy · 30/07/2024 17:44

But how can football taught by a school PE teacher be exempt?!

Because it's not formal education or training.

absquatulize · 30/07/2024 17:41

Inthemosquitogarden · 30/07/2024 17:10

And added to this private schools lose their charitable status (and the vast majority really are not companies : there are no shareholders or anyone making a profit : the fees literally just pay for the running of the school and that’s it, supervised by a board of governors (who are volunteers)).

Losing their charitable status will likely mean that private schools need to switch from cost recovery charging to cost recovery for business rates.

so the cost of swimming/lamda/everything else the private school is used for by outside providers will go up as well as a potential vat liability

In the interests of factual accuracy I would like to point out that half of private schools are companies not charities. Presumably run with the aim of making a profit.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:40

@MyNameIsFine

It's great they are essentially the after school provider for four local primaries in addition to their own children.

I wonder now if it's part of what they do for their charity status.

OP posts:
MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 17:34

billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:25

@MyNameIsFine she does one day a week. They do different things each day. My DD goes three days and on those days they do football, crafts, forest school - it changes termly 😬😬

Gosh, that's à pretty amazing afterschool club. How do I get my children in 😁

AlexanderArnold · 30/07/2024 17:33

titchy · 30/07/2024 17:22

it says the preschool (ie. Nursery) of a private school is liable

No it doesn't. See 2.9

Sorry! You're quite right.

But how can football taught by a school PE teacher be exempt?!

MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 17:33

billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:26

What does that mean 😬😬

A PE teacher from the school does a football session 🤷‍♀️

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If they bring in a coach to do the football and charge you for it, they'll have to add VAT. If a PE teacher kicks a football round with the kids for free in after school club, then no VAT - in fact, you should still be able to pay for it with tax free childcare. It makes no sense at all, but I think you're safe.

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:30

@MyNameIsFine

No all wraparound care sessions cost the same. I get an invoice every month for how many sessions she's been to that month.

OP posts:
MyNameIsFine · 30/07/2024 17:28

billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:14

This is what confuses me that refers to
only if it is solely childcare. She does do football in one session which seems to be treated differently.

Very confused!

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Do you pay extra for the football?

Original poster
billyjo · 30/07/2024 17:26

titchy · 30/07/2024 17:21

If they're not being 'formally trained' in football they're exempt.

What does that mean 😬😬

A PE teacher from the school does a football session 🤷‍♀️

OP posts: