Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

Public sector workers are assessed in exactly the same way as those in the private sector. The difference is that getting rid of someone who performs badly is an incredibly lengthy and tedious process.

It was indeed Sunak's fault but how else was Furlough and the covid shut down to be funded? Every time I ventirednit was disproportionate, I was vilified as a grannie killer on here.

What would Labour have done during Covid?

One certainty is that the British public shut down largely for the NHS. The NHS did not reopen promptly for us. Many services shifted theirnesponsibiloties for BP, weighing, etc to individuals or pharmacists. It was unsafe for pharmacists or shop workers to render public facing services but it was unsafe for NHS workers to do so. I've never figured that one out or got a straight answer from anyone who works in the NHS.

How strictly is your performance managed out of interest? I think this is something that public sector workers in general don't appreciate. Relative is a TPD and feels that lack of professionalism and poor clinical performance is an ever increasing problem in trainees. How does your company approach multiple exam failures? Or repeated absences/lateness? I would imagine the private sector would be much less tolerant of poor performance.

Yeah, its not great, is it? I work in financial services. Exams I need or want are financed by the company. My phone is provided. My laptop is provided. If I need to go on a course it is paid for any any overnights/travel is expensed in full. My CII/PFS fees are paid by the company. My husband thinks this is amazing. I don't! They want me to do it, they pay!!

Personally, I feel that pay alone is only a part of the problem. The conditions and brutal allocation of training positions are awful. But it is still a rewarding career and we shouldn't compare apples and pears like the PP comparing an F1 to a carpet fitter.

@Everanewbie you forgot to list that as well as a pension (much worse than it used to be), they have to pay GMC fees, which are a decent chunk per year, plus fees of several £1000 for every exam they need to take over the 8 plus years post qualifying training. Plus, when they are taking exams to get to the next level, even if they do well, if they aren't promoted they have to pay for and take those exams again.

But this is not taken from public funds so what is your argument?

and the private sector has had big pay rises not all the private sector, by far.
I don’t understand your last sentence, sorry.

Well. Let me try.

PPE. I use that as an example because it seems like those who oppose the Con party wheel that one out because it feels like a gotcha point. Yes, DH worked throughout the pandemic. Yes, early on him and his colleagues were terrified. Quickly, they became frustrated by the amount of elective surgery cancelled while capacity was easily managed. He was home by 3 most days chuntering about how his training would need to be extended because of the lack of numbers. He also calls bullshit on masks, particularly surgical masks as a mitigation. He stresses that they are designed to protect from blood splatters and wound contamination, nothing to do with airborne respiratory viruses. He was frustrated however, when patients that tested +ve with Covid were only noted after he'd examined them, where higher grade PPE would have been used.

Bankers. Well another tired troupe wheeled out when someone wants an example of a perceived overpaid job with little use. Despite some banks having a large government share holding hungover from the financial crisis of 08/09, they are largely private organisations, and I don't see how employee remuneration is any business of anyone accept the employer and employee. I don't have intimate knowledge of each financial institutions pension schemes, but they will be subject to the same limits and allowances as the rest of the world. On the subject of banking, many in that world feel that Doctors would make excellent money managers given their skills at weighing up risk/reward. I found that interesting.

I 100% agree with your last point. If you want Dr's, and good ones, their remuneration package and conditions need to reflect their expertise. And I agree with the uplift whole heartedly. The random placement for training positions is obscene, our relationship and marriage barely survived the relocations from CT to Reg training, fellowships etc.

Where we disagree is that misrepresenting the career prospects, the rewards and pension schemes does the cause no favours. "I know a plumber on £100k" and "we can't access pensions til 67" doesn't pull the wool over anyones eyes.

Sorry, can't debate with anyone making light of PPE issues. I lost an ex student due to the Tories providing plastic bags as PPE in ED. I hope those responsible end up in jail.

Want a doctor. Pay them and treat them better. V v simple.

I know many many 23 year olds that earn way above £32,000. Graduate schemes start at that for 21 year olds !

23 year old plumbers earning £100k?? I'm sorry, thats either a rare success story, cash in hand working hands to the bone, or, more likely, bullshit.

@Everanewbie you are married to a doctor, who worked during Covid. Yet you make a 'joke' about PPE. That is sickening.

@Everanewbie well I used to be one, so I know about bankers. OK with you to use an example that I know about ?

And a hefty bonus is a possibility and sometimes guaranteed

But Tories!! PPE!!!

@Everanewbie I know many students who left school 5 years ago who went on to become plumbers or window fitters who earn well into 6 figures. The only doctors who left school 5 years ago who earn near that are abroad.

As someone who is helping young people go into medicine this makes it v hard to encourage. If your husband has just completed training he is very v lucky if he's stayed in one place for 7 years (assume you have children). He must also speak to the younger doctors who worry about lack of training spots now.

FFS. When you're struggling, wheel out bankers.

I don't think that is a fair rate. I agree with you, I am just trying to ensure that you are fair with your comparisons.

Point me to a 23 year old earning more than an F1, legally, then fair play to them.

And I'm pretty sure many many people have excellent pensions. Bankers for example.

Look, I don't dispute that life is tough for Doctors. I am married to one who has just completed training. And I know that it is getting more competitive at foundation level than how he had it.

But to pretend being a Dr is comparable to your typical tradesperson is just disingenuous. Yes, a skilled and experienced sparky might demand £150 per hour. If you want to make the comparison, compare an F1 with an apprentice, or a new hire, not someone at the peak of their career.

@Everanewbie woo hoo. So a 23 year old should be paid £15.33 for holding the bleep over night because one day they might get a nice pension. That's ok then. They can tell their landlord and power companies that and I'm sure they'll defer their bills for 32 years.

Yes, Doctors do pay a contribution to the pension scheme, which is not insignificant, however the benefits still considerably outweigh what is generally available in the private sector. And it is not true that they must wait until they are 67 to receive pension benefits. They can access benefits from age 55 albeit with an actuarial reduction, as per any scheme. The full benefit is based on 67.

@Everanewbie actually most will likely remain on F2 pay for many years, as so few training posts. IF (& it's a big if) they can get a job.

And I know many trades who earn way above what a doctor ever will. Not saying that's wrong, but doctors are v v badly paid for their skills in this country. They are not elsewhere, so strangely that's where they might all end up.

Apologies for spelling. I'm angry. Young doctors being treated like shit. And the public think that's good.

Point taken. But nor are they likely to remain as an F1 for their entire career. And the rewards out there are not comparable to carpet fitting.