Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

New Zealand has a shortage of doctors too, no problem in voting with their feet. They can also take other jobs - pharmaceutical sales, management consultancy both recruit those fed up of being over-worked and underpaid.

AI was a fat lot of use in the pandemic. It will help with the more mundane and predictable but it will be years before it is a substitute for much. Do you turn to Dr Google now or do you head for A&E with those worrying symptoms?

As for the idea that there are plenty of jobs - not plenty of consultant posts. Yes there is still medical work to be done and the country wastes a lot of money paying locums to do work that could be done by people in permanent posts. There will be tens of thousands of consultants retiring relatively soon - within the training period for new consultants - and not enough posts for people like anaesthetists to replace them. I wonder how happy the surgeon husband will be when he cant operate because there are not enough anaesthetists being trained. Every had your computer collapse on you or been out of action after an attack? This is what you want to trust your life to if you need surgery?

Edit for typos, may have missed some.

Even the US is now actively recruiting - some states have dropped their requirements so anyone can come and try it out.

@Judetiff your right, they didn't need it. Dad worked for 42 years for the same company so had a nice final salary pension. They were not wealthy by any means. But in those days fuel bills weren't so high - might have needed it last winter.

However, it's madness that millionaires get it. But do think it should be available for anyone that needs it. Cold kills.

Your parents clearly didn’t need it. There are many who can’t claim pension credit because they receive a full pension having worked hard, paying into the system, all their lives; therefore, they will lose the desperately needed winter fuel payment.

NHS and teachers receive quite high pension contributions. I think this part often gets forgotten. Many of them retire at 60.

There are plenty of other countries that will willingly take them, pay them well and show them far more respect than they get here.

All those making ignorant comments that they can go elsewhere if they don't like the pay and conditions need reminding that the UK need them more than they need us. There are a huge number of issues in the NHS but resolving them is next to impossible if we do not have enough front line staff. Paying them fairly will in turn fill gaps and reduce excessive spending on temp staff and locums. Only once this is resolved, will it be possible to focus on other problems

NZ love British healthcare staff, we lived there for a bit, loads of British staff in the hospitals.

Canada and New Zealand are also very keen to have them.

Australia will eventually run out of vacancies, I wonder where's next?

Yes and so they should. If they are not valued here then why stay? They are very talented young people with lots to offer and if that is not recognised here then why not go to Australia? The sad thing is that they should not need to go to the other side of the world just to get decent working conditions.

Newly qualified doctors leaving for Australia in droves. My DBIL recruits from UK for practices all over AUS. Anecdotally he said that they work fewer hours for roughly double the money!

After someone commented on the thread last night about Grade 8 nurses and their salaries. I had a Google. It's varied from 51k to 91k.

Are these grade 8 the modern matrons?

They needed a pay rise though don’t know if it should be called that. It is a good thing if it happens. I hope they turn their attention t
now to post office and blood scandals. It is a responsibility and needs to be paid for. Hard times. Another reason to make sure those who are drowning get a big leg up and those ok continue. We need to move away from thinking charity is an intrinsic part of life.

Love the implication that doctors don't live in the real world. When they see the real world in their faces every day, especially in ED and GP.

I don't think they think they are special, why do you think that?

I think we need to remember that pay reflects the skill and scarcity of any profession. The smaller the pool of people who can do a job the more you need to pay to recruit or keep them.

@Tiredalwaystired agreed. But been talking to a lot of my ex students who are doctors and not one is voting to accept 🤷‍♀️. They know their worth. All from disadvantaged backgrounds, worked their butts off to get into and through medical school so they'll fight for what they believe is fair.
All they ask if the same pay they'd have been on when they applied. Doesn't seem that much to ask.

That’s a bit cart before horse isn’t it? They haven’t NOT accepted this either. Give them a chance to see whether this is accepted or not first.

It should always be headline news that this is NOT a pay rise. They've never asked for a pay rise. They've asked for their pay to be restored to where it should be if it hadn't been cut in real terms for 14 years.

Goodwill in the NHS goes both ways. Treat staff badly and it goes. If there is another pandemic we are stuffed.

@Tiredalwaystired the doctors have not accepted this. It's going to a vote, which may very likely end up with this deal of 1% extra this year being rejected. Want a doctor, pay them. There is no commitment to FPR so strikes will continue if rejected. Much much cheaper to offer them the FPR over 5 years.

Why have they blown it? Step one was getting the doctors back to work. Hopefully job done. They’ve been in power for five weeks - there is a 14 year shit show to fix.

And a commercial interest rate would be great, not 7% when base rate was 0.75%. Personally I think that's called theft. But it's what they pay.

@WindsurfingDreams well you can go whistle for that. Indentured servants are illegal. It does not cost £250,000 to train a doctor, that's a load of bollocks. But that's how much they'll repay, so what training costs are you referring to ?

One F2 finished his 13 hour shift yesterday and walked straight into unemployment today. Nothing for August as no training spot. Will he be compensated for being sold a lie 8 years ago when he applied - when his salary would have been 20% higher and job security was a thing.

I’d prefer carrot to stick. Stay here, work in the NHS for a minimum of ten years and get your student loan written off.

I'd like to see them recoup training costs (at a commercial interest rate) if doctors move abroad.

Well after this offer all it seems to have done is help young doctors with their decision. Many will do as Oona suggests, and now leave. Australia and others are actively recruiting them. For more money, less hours and better training.

The government had an opportunity to save the NHS and they've blown it. If they'd tackled the other stuff, maybe said loans can be written off if you stay (costs nothing as they won't ever finish paying off the £250,000+) or linked FPR to future deals then it would be different. But to offer 1% more this year is an insult.

I hope no one complains when they can't see any doctor in a few years. Like GPs, they'll be unemployed in the UK so will need to leave. And other countries will welcome them and treat them well.