Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DC’s teacher didn’t go to university.

615 replies

RabbitWedge · 28/07/2024 17:38

Two of my DC’s are at the same secondary private school. It’s a small private school, not a well known name, but costs a small fortune nonetheless. An interaction with one of my DC’s English teachers at the end of term has made me feel uncomfortable.

‘Mrs Jones’ has worked at the school for a number of years. She is a very well liked English teacher; the children love her and she’s given high praise on the parents WhatsApp group. At the end of term, I was having a casual chit chat with ‘Mrs Jones’ and the topic of university came up. I asked ‘Mrs Jones’ where she went to university, and she stated that she had not gone and didn’t have a degree. I must have looked very taken aback, as she quickly added that she had an impeccable educational record (apparently all A’s and A*’s), she’d been tutoring for a number of years and working as a TA, at which point the school promoted her to teach English. I didn’t ask for this explanation, but she perhaps felt the need to justify her teaching.

I was under the impression that all teachers had to have degrees at the very least, and whilst I don’t doubt her popularity and delivery of her English lessons, I am concerned. I was aware that teachers in the private system didn’t need to be qualified teachers, but to not even have attended university seems unsuitable.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?

OP posts:
Goslingsforlife · 31/07/2024 08:31

RabbitWedge · 28/07/2024 17:38

Two of my DC’s are at the same secondary private school. It’s a small private school, not a well known name, but costs a small fortune nonetheless. An interaction with one of my DC’s English teachers at the end of term has made me feel uncomfortable.

‘Mrs Jones’ has worked at the school for a number of years. She is a very well liked English teacher; the children love her and she’s given high praise on the parents WhatsApp group. At the end of term, I was having a casual chit chat with ‘Mrs Jones’ and the topic of university came up. I asked ‘Mrs Jones’ where she went to university, and she stated that she had not gone and didn’t have a degree. I must have looked very taken aback, as she quickly added that she had an impeccable educational record (apparently all A’s and A*’s), she’d been tutoring for a number of years and working as a TA, at which point the school promoted her to teach English. I didn’t ask for this explanation, but she perhaps felt the need to justify her teaching.

I was under the impression that all teachers had to have degrees at the very least, and whilst I don’t doubt her popularity and delivery of her English lessons, I am concerned. I was aware that teachers in the private system didn’t need to be qualified teachers, but to not even have attended university seems unsuitable.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?

that's what you often get with private schools though academies aren't much better. They make money and it's cheaper to employ non-qualifies staff. Private schools do well because they are selective, not because the teaching is great. it really is that simple. I am really shocked you weren't aware of the fact that you fork out £££ to get your DC taught he folks who haven't seen a university from the inside. How can you possibly not have known???

boombang · 31/07/2024 08:13

And of course PhDs are not without value, but you need to be mindful of the cohort that has them. It will be mostly men, in a course that requires actual attendance on campus (science, tech,) etc, although not fro a course that can be organised around family life (English lit etc)

Women with PhDs are less likely to have children, precisely because the PhD is done in your 20s, and is incompatible with pregnancy and childbirth in many cases.

And of course, it is done by people who can fund themselves for an extra 3 years study.

So yes, it is of value, but if your child is being taught by someone with a doctorate, they are statistically more likely to be being taught by someone who is male, or a female who is not a mother, and has access to private finance.

if you want your children taught by a more normal person, with a more normal experience of life, and a mother, then you are more likely to get that with non PhD.

Of course you also have to be very clever, and work hard, I am not saying that, but you also have to be lucky in many ways too.

How many of us have had the opportunity to get funded for a PhD? Vert few, I would imagine.

When I look at those of my peers with PhDs, they all come from the richest quarter of the population. When I look at those peers of my children studying PhDs now, yes, they are hugely clever and dedicated, but also no one who has had to support a parent with cancer, or is ready to settle down with their partner and look at mortgages and start to raise a family, etc.

boombang · 31/07/2024 08:04

BibbleandSqwauk · 30/07/2024 23:34

Of course but that's rare. In my experience (teacher) sometimes it's actually a positive to have a teacher who isn't an absolute whizz at the subject because they can understand why the bottom end aren't getting it. If they've had to work hard to gain the understanding and weren't naturally gifted at, say, maths, they are more likely to have patience and understanding of someone with dyscalculia. Don't forget teaching isn't just about stretching the top set but supporting the slower learners too. Not all private schools are selective, Oxbridge focused hothouses. I don't mean to say noone with a PhD can do that, but it's not a simple equation of more degrees = best teacher for all kids.

I agree, I am the best teacher when teaching things I struggled with myself

violetcuriosity · 31/07/2024 07:33

I'm a qualified teacher, I learnt fuck all doing my undergrad degree. Good teaching comes from learning from outstanding practitioners and having excellent subject knowledge in the subject you teach- sounds like she has both. This is what makes me laugh about private education, you really are just paying for the crowd your kids are mixing with,

whatatool · 31/07/2024 06:20

I suppose the question is, do you want Mrs Jones to teach your child to achieve top marks at GCSE (something she probably excels at) or Mrs X to explore a deeper understanding and passion for the subject with perhaps poorer GCSE marks?

sashh · 31/07/2024 05:56

LuluBlakey1 · 29/07/2024 20:29

They need a degree to complete a PGCE to teach in a primary or secondary school.
Private schools are not bound by the same rules and often employ unqualified teachers.
State schools can employ unqualified teachers but that would be an exception and usually someone who has some time from a PGCE or SCITT still to complete for whatever reason. I have never come across someone employed as a teacher who had no degree in a state secondary school.

Edited

I have.

Don't forget some subjects you can't do a degree in. I worked at one that actually had hairdressing and beauty therapy options. I never asked but I don't think the teachers had degrees because, well hairdressing isn't a degree subject.

Quite a few practical subjects you can't do a degree in that subject.

Teachers in FE don't need degrees, most have come from industry and take a part time teaching qualification.

BibbleandSqwauk · 30/07/2024 23:34

Of course but that's rare. In my experience (teacher) sometimes it's actually a positive to have a teacher who isn't an absolute whizz at the subject because they can understand why the bottom end aren't getting it. If they've had to work hard to gain the understanding and weren't naturally gifted at, say, maths, they are more likely to have patience and understanding of someone with dyscalculia. Don't forget teaching isn't just about stretching the top set but supporting the slower learners too. Not all private schools are selective, Oxbridge focused hothouses. I don't mean to say noone with a PhD can do that, but it's not a simple equation of more degrees = best teacher for all kids.

HucklefinBerry · 30/07/2024 23:31

@AvrielFinch
We don't live with ideals though. We live with reality. In an ideal scenario someone would hold a PhD in how to teach maths to GCSE students and would be a naturally gifted communicator with great empathy with young people

But in reality we get a random cocktail and it is rare that people who are as academically focused as one needs to be to go through the process of obtaining a PhD are also good at the other stuff.

Added to which, a PhD is a very specific area of study that undoubtedly has no relevance to teaching gcse

Many of the math PhDs I have come across are frankly terrible communicators in life let alone in the classroom. Cool interesting brains but not the greatest communicators.

Died this mean no one with a PhD is going to be a great teacher? Of course it doesn't. But neither does it mean they will likely be one

AvrielFinch · 30/07/2024 23:09

HucklefinBerry · 30/07/2024 22:03

Having a PhD doesn't mean you'll be a good teacher though. In fact there is no connection between having a PhD and having the skills to teach. Some of my dc worst teachers were the ones that held phds. They were very knowledgeable on the subject but had zero ability to teach or even communicate well. Especially the science teachers.

Surely having a PhD and a great ability to teach is the ideal?

HucklefinBerry · 30/07/2024 22:06

Winter41 · 28/07/2024 17:53

I think people often assume private schools will have the best teachers. It has been suggested to me, by parents who send their children to private school that I should look to work on one, to earn more.

Private schools often pay less and do not always offer the teachers pension scheme and so it's not surprising they may not always be able to recruit the best qualified staff. I'm not saying private school teachers are all worse than state of course, just that there is no reason to assume they would be better. The only teachers I know that have moved from state to private have done so because they couldn't cope in the state sector.

In addition, there is of course a massive teacher recruitment and retention issue in both state and private sectors. All of our teachers have degrees in my school, but we often have to teach outside of our specialisms to plug gaps in timetables.

It must vary enormously as the private s hoops around me (Surrey) pay way more than state. The holidays are many weeks longer too. Days are longer tbf but most people would rather that and have the extra 7-8 weeks of holiday a year

HucklefinBerry · 30/07/2024 22:03

TheRainItRaineth · 28/07/2024 17:46

Honestly, this doesn't sound like a good school if they can't attract degree-educated people to teach essential subjects. For context, my DD is at a private secondary and her English teacher has a PhD.

The qualifications of the deputy PM are clearly irrelevant as there are no minimum qualifications to be an MP and the entire sector is pretty much unregulated.

Having a PhD doesn't mean you'll be a good teacher though. In fact there is no connection between having a PhD and having the skills to teach. Some of my dc worst teachers were the ones that held phds. They were very knowledgeable on the subject but had zero ability to teach or even communicate well. Especially the science teachers.

HucklefinBerry · 30/07/2024 22:01

Toetouchingtitties · 28/07/2024 17:44

I don’t get this ‘need a degree to teach’ bullshit. You can get some very capable individuals who can teach without one. If they are getting good results, what’s the issue?

I agree. So what if someone has a degree in comparative linguistics or medieval history? How is that going to make a blind boy of difference to how they teach GCSE history or English.

The teacher's track record is excellent. I would be happy with that.

RawBloomers · 30/07/2024 21:53

Yalta · 30/07/2024 21:09

Where as in the past a qualified nurse had been to college and spent time on the wards and working in different departments so when they became a fully qualified they knew exactly what was expected of them as a qualified nursing professional and it didn’t come as a total surprise they had to empty bed pans and make cups of tea as well as everything else

Nursing degree students also have to spend significant time on wards. To be fully qualified via a nursing degree student nurses have to complete 2300 placement hours - which is about 1 and a third years of full time work - on top of their degree. It's unlikley that they are less aware of what is expected of them.

Medicine has become more and more complex over time. The level of intellectual prowess required to be a successful nurse has increased with it. That includes understanding the intricacies of different treatments, but also the ability to balance and prioritize needs in resource scarce environments and to learn new requirements quickly.

Yalta · 30/07/2024 21:09

AngelusBell · 30/07/2024 16:09

When I’m in hospital I am reassured to know that the nurse has done a three-year nursing degree BUT it doesn’t guarantee they will be a good nurse.

Where as in the past a qualified nurse had been to college and spent time on the wards and working in different departments so when they became a fully qualified they knew exactly what was expected of them as a qualified nursing professional and it didn’t come as a total surprise they had to empty bed pans and make cups of tea as well as everything else

RaraRachael · 30/07/2024 20:42

We had a few older teachers who retired recently. They didn't have a degree nor had they been to university.
They had a diploma in education from a teacher training college.

AvrielFinch · 30/07/2024 20:38

I know teachers do have to teach subjects that are not their degree subject, but everyone knows it is less than ideal. It is simply due to a shortage of teachers in those subjects. But English is a subject where it is much easier to recruit a teacher with an English degree.
My English O Level was taught by a brilliant English teacher who taught us far more than just how to pass an exam. She dropped in various insights that I still remember to this day. That is why having someone who can teach and has a degree in the subject, is the best scenario. I would not be happy paying for a TA.
And those talking about private tutoring are missing the point. Revision of a subject, which tutoring is, is very different and is much more just about passing an exam.

decionsdecisions62 · 30/07/2024 20:10

Ha ha 🤣 sorry but it's hilarious! You're paying a fortune and are getting your children educated by TAs with little education themselves!

RaraRachael · 30/07/2024 20:02

There are quite a few vacancies but they generally filled with new graduates or, in our area, mums returning after having children.

boombang · 30/07/2024 19:59

RaraRachael · 30/07/2024 19:57

It must be very different in Scotland. You wouldn't get any maths teaching job without a maths degree.

really, wow! and you have maths graduates that want to teach? We don't have many of those in England

RaraRachael · 30/07/2024 19:57

boombang · 30/07/2024 19:48

I have never met a head of maths with a maths degree

It must be very different in Scotland. You wouldn't get any maths teaching job without a maths degree.

boombang · 30/07/2024 19:48

I have never met a head of maths with a maths degree

Pythag · 30/07/2024 17:41

TheRainItRaineth · 30/07/2024 14:48

I don't know if it is different for sciences, but DD's PhD qualified English teachers (two of them so far) definitely seemed to be giving much more interesting and deep dive content than you would normally expect. Come to think of it one of her physics teachers also did so, so perhaps it depends on the person. He was so obviously passionate about his subject that it really contributed to the enthusiasm of the children. I would always rather be taught by someone who really loves their subject and I do think it's noticeable.

Having said all that, when I initially commented I didn't know that this particular teacher was only teaching up to GCSE and although I'd still prefer someone with a degree by a long long way, I do think most GCSE English content is probably teachable to an adequate standard by someone with no degree but a reasonable level of intelligence since the spec requires very little independent though, though I think at least some of the children would benefit from someone with deeper knowledge since hopefully it's not just about teaching to the test. I don't think someone without at least a closely related subject degree would be able to provide adequate support in science or maths subjects, not even for GCSE.

PhDs are optional and obviously don't confer teaching ability - but personal experience via my own schooling and DD leads me to believe that these teachers can be very inspiring when they are both highly knowledgable and also good at teaching.

I teach maths A-level and I have a law degree. I believe I am good at it and have enough subject knowledge. :)

tamade · 30/07/2024 16:15

TheRainItRaineth · 30/07/2024 14:48

I don't know if it is different for sciences, but DD's PhD qualified English teachers (two of them so far) definitely seemed to be giving much more interesting and deep dive content than you would normally expect. Come to think of it one of her physics teachers also did so, so perhaps it depends on the person. He was so obviously passionate about his subject that it really contributed to the enthusiasm of the children. I would always rather be taught by someone who really loves their subject and I do think it's noticeable.

Having said all that, when I initially commented I didn't know that this particular teacher was only teaching up to GCSE and although I'd still prefer someone with a degree by a long long way, I do think most GCSE English content is probably teachable to an adequate standard by someone with no degree but a reasonable level of intelligence since the spec requires very little independent though, though I think at least some of the children would benefit from someone with deeper knowledge since hopefully it's not just about teaching to the test. I don't think someone without at least a closely related subject degree would be able to provide adequate support in science or maths subjects, not even for GCSE.

PhDs are optional and obviously don't confer teaching ability - but personal experience via my own schooling and DD leads me to believe that these teachers can be very inspiring when they are both highly knowledgable and also good at teaching.

I definitely agree that passion for a subject is of utmost importance and a PhD is probably a good indicator of that.
I’d disagree with anyone saying that holding a qualification that requires research in a novel and quite specific area of a subject is any use for teaching the subject to pupils in school.

AngelusBell · 30/07/2024 16:09

absquatulize · 28/07/2024 18:03

How does spending 3+ years doing research make you a good teacher?

When I’m in hospital I am reassured to know that the nurse has done a three-year nursing degree BUT it doesn’t guarantee they will be a good nurse.

AngelusBell · 30/07/2024 16:04

Winter41 · 28/07/2024 17:53

I think people often assume private schools will have the best teachers. It has been suggested to me, by parents who send their children to private school that I should look to work on one, to earn more.

Private schools often pay less and do not always offer the teachers pension scheme and so it's not surprising they may not always be able to recruit the best qualified staff. I'm not saying private school teachers are all worse than state of course, just that there is no reason to assume they would be better. The only teachers I know that have moved from state to private have done so because they couldn't cope in the state sector.

In addition, there is of course a massive teacher recruitment and retention issue in both state and private sectors. All of our teachers have degrees in my school, but we often have to teach outside of our specialisms to plug gaps in timetables.

This is true - I was a teacher for 27 years and had to turn down job offers from private schools because I couldn’t afford to take such large pat cuts.