Conversations around race with your partner

@ireallyneedsuppport if it's always been like this then you definitely need to leave now. You know it won't get better. I wish it started early on for me, then I wouldn't be so financially tied to him as I am now.

@elliemillie

Sure - I don’t know as I’ve not been in that situation but I can tell you I wouldn’t put up with that behaviour and it’s because I was taught to advocate for myself from very young.

It’s because of my childhood (which was far from perfect) that I would not stay with a racist partner.

As a woman of colour myself I am so upset that a black woman is in this position. However I’m also utterly confounded that she’s allowing it to continue.

Because you are @ireallyneedsuppport

You are allowing him to treat you like this. By staying when you are able to leave you are allowing it.

I'm sorry op, this sounds really hard. I'm mixed race although second generation so don't appear mixed race so much, coming from a family 4 generations of black heritage now it gives some perspective on these issues. Firstly that things today aren't that much better than they were in the 1950s. Some things are, but racism doesn't just get fixed over time. Don't let anyone pretend it's solved now, you know it isn't. I've never experienced racist family members or partner either, my husband is proud of my heritage and has encouraged me to learn more about my black ancestry and encouraged me all the way. Sometimes he's not sure, but listens patiently. I read something recently, I really wish I could remember where (it could be the book Mixed/Other or the Mixed Up podcast, can't remember) but as people with minority ethnicity heritage, race is ever present but we grow up seeing the good, the love, the things that make us and our families special, self hatred can be a thing but we can engage with race as a positive experience. For white people, their first conversations about race are when negative things happen, don't say that, don't do that and it means that often white people are defensive because conversations were always negative as children. I'm not excusing your partner, I think he has a lot of work to do but it was an interesting perspective. Perhaps find a therapist who can help you because you can't change him but they may give you some tools. It's hard to find a therapist who is the same heritage but I think it's important because white therapists are often hopeless at discussing race and it's impact.

@Merryoldgoat I don't think people stay with partners like this because of their childhood. It's because on the whole, the relationship is not that terrible. It will get really bad in the end and I can bet my last bottom dollar the racism didn't show anywhere at all in the first few years. The first devil's advocacy with regards to race by my partner, came 3 years into our relationship. And for a year I was sure I was overreacting because how didn't this happen earlier? It's hard to understand unless you have been there.

I am leaving but can't tell anyone I know why because they won't be able to reconcile the woman they know to the one who has put up with that behaviour for a year.

@ireallyneedsuppport

I’m struggling to understand why you are putting up with this? Was this normal for you when you were growing up? Being insulted and told that your feelings don’t matter?

You're right, it wouldn't.

I agree there 100% that they wouldn’t see it as an insult that should be used. But you’d have to be from another planet to not know it is insulting and would hurt someone if you wanted to be nasty. To clarify, not my views and not something I would say but I think someone nasty would, to be as nasty as possible. That sounds like OPs DHs relative.

I'm in an interacial relationship (I am white), and if I am honest, I was totally ignorant of racism until I met my DH.
The level of racism he faces day to day is shocking, and it's been a lot of learning for me. The thing is, it's something I want to learn about, and that's the difference.

I think he has to put real effort in to understand your point of view, otherwise you're always going to be talking to a brick wall and uncomfortable.

Defending racism isnt ever ok, neither is ignorance and if he wasn't able to challenge his family, that would be the end for me I'm afraid.

Any advice on how we can bridge our different approaches to these discussions would be greatly appreciated. We're both coming from a place of wanting to understand each other better, even if we're currently struggling to do so effectively.

No further advice other than what you have already suggested such as reading books, etc. You should know that unless he has a sudden epiphany (highly unlikely) you will find that you just have the burden of dealing with any racism that comes your way, with no real support, or understanding coming from your partner. If you have no one in rl to talk about these things with, I dread to think of the toll this will take on your mental, and physical health. All the best.

@ireallyneedsuppport ive rtft and your latest update. If my partner had cancer, I wouldn’t play Devil’s Advocate about how cancer treatment is funded in the NHS. If my partner was wheelchair bound, I wouldn’t play devil’s advocate about the requirement to make buildings and transport more accessible to those with disabilities. This is because my loved one’s lived experience and painful history in relation to those subjects would never be fodder for intellectual debate. It is good that your DH has acknowledged that his immediate response is to be defensive when these conversations come up and that he feels like white people are always under attack because he is acknowledging a truth that is very obvious to you. What is not good is that your DH clearly does not see enough wrong in his approach to date to seek meaningful change and he will never be a real ally to you. To put it bluntly, he does not care about your feelings on this subject enough to want to change.

Black people in this country are subject to racism and micro aggressions outside of the home on a regular basis. The very least we should be able to hope for is support (rather than devil’s advocacy) at home.

So if you want to hurt someone who is black you call them a n**? A person who is not racist would not see the colour of a person’s skin as the basis of an insult in the same way that they wouldn’t see hair or eye colour as the basis of an insult.

I don’t think you need to understand his point of view better. He needs to stop making excuses for racism. It’s that simple.

He does it about everything. You can't actually have a simple conversation without it turning into a debate. He has a PhD in Philosophy and everything is philosophical.
The devil advocacy ranges from the earth being flat, Russia could be winning the war but the media is lying to us, the statics for criminals in the West could be skewed to hide the fact that the majority of crimes are perpetrated by brown people. If you counter any of these with anything close to reality, he claims you are believing main stream media. He has found a way to offend all of my friends both white and black so now I contain him outside my social circle. It's just tiring 😫

My soon to be ex DP also says he is playing devil's advocate. This is just not going to get better. It will escalate.
Under the guise of devil's advocate many hurtful things will be said to you. On a day like yesterday when Social Media was full of hate for people of colour, your home will not be a place where you can retreat to and feel safe. It will become another battle ground.
A short break is a very good idea. It is space to really explore your feelings about the relationship. Then decide whether you want to extend the break and don't forget, it's never very bad in the beginning. Just a bit irritating.....then the volume turns up and you will be like a boiling frog.

Your dp has got so much work to do in order to be able to meet your needs in this area. Crucially, he is reluctant and ambivalent about doing this work. I think 'understanding each other better'is actually a ploy for you to surrender your position and maintain realtions how they've always been. You can't op, you already know that there are fundamental cracks in your relationship. You can drag a horse to water and all that. I would reccomend therapy for you alone, someone who specialises in race and identity stuff.

@ireallyneedsuppport

Look. Your husband is a racist. It’s that simple. Devil’s Advocate? Racism isn’t a valid alternative to being non-racist.

You’re not ready to accept it yet which is your prerogative but you are fighting a losing battle.

He’s offered you zero concession and wants you to prove how you’ve suffered from racism?

Give over.

Your husband is a racist in denial. You won't find common ground with him because he doesn't want to understand. He wants to minimize and live an easy life.

I really feel for you, OP.

Taking on board what you say about wanting to work it out...somehow you need to get him to understand that this is not an intellectual debate for you and he doesn't need to educate you on where people might be coming from or why they might say racist things, he just needs to have your back and make you feel supported. That really is not too much to ask for from a life partner.

I don't honestly know how you can get through to him on this. Or even if you can get through. Especially if he is unwilling to engage with the resources that you're suggesting or counselling etc. It sounds like he thinks that he shouldn't need to change and that you're asking too much of him...but you're really not, you're asking for the bare minimum.

I'm white, but fwiw I think if your husband is defending racism then he's also racist. I couldn't stay in the relationship.
The fact that he's not even willing to reflect and listen to you tells you everything you need to know.