I would swap with her in an instant

Oh I totally agree!- all the men's fault entirely. I'm merely pointing out that noone on this thread actually said they want to be "ugly" or that ugly is something to aspire to as a way of gaslighting those who are feeling that way is all or minimising other people's feelings which is something that was said upthread.

It's not about wanting to be "ugly" it's about wanting the harassment to stop. Referring to this comment here: People trying to flip that around to argue that actually, it's better to be ugly, are completely disconnected from the real world

Noone has said that being "ugly" is better and as you stated, anyone can be harassed!

Those awful examples of male behaviour don't happen because a woman is beautiful. They happen because the men concerned are mysogynists. Women of all levels of attractiveness experience this type of thing, dependent on the places they have to go and the type of men in those places, and sheer bad luck of encountering them. Any aspect of a woman's appearance makes her fair game for the wrong man's attentions, overweight, ugly, large or small breasts, all can bring this sort of offensive attention. Its far too simplistic to say the groping and cat calling stops because 'I'm old and invisible'. As getting older brings other changes that effect this too. Less likelihood of getting groped if you go less to clubs and bars. Less likely to be cat called on the street when you're less reliant on walking and public transport to get from A to B. Less likely to be seen as a safe easy target if you look like an older woman who might report you rather than an intimidated teen.
The idea that harassment and abuse is linked to attractiveness is a myth and a dangerous one at that. It's far too close to "it's a compliment! What do you expect when you're so gorgeous?" for my liking. It's not about appreciation of some women, it's about distain for all women.

Both of those examples you've given are people saying that now they aren't getting attention, they like it better. They are sharing their lived experiences not saying that it's better to be ugly

Exactly this and many examples given on this thread were not merely polite respectful compliments from polite men- they were being harassed and assaulted- groped, bum pinched, cat called, leered at, followed, stared at etc. Which for a woman is incredibly intimidating and scary. They never said they wanted to be "ugly" they said they enjoyed feeling "invisible" because the harassment stopped. They wanted not to feel like a piece of meat.

If people are really interpreting "I dont want to be harassed any more and I am glad its stopped now as people leave me alone" as "I want to be physically ugly, its the best!" then I really dont know what to say 🙄

OP, how did you pick up on the fact that 'men crossed the road to be near her'? It's astonishing if they did really, and so obviously so for that reason. How could you be certain?
I consider myself pretty observant person but if I walked down a busy street I would struggle to draw a mental line between a man crossing the road with a pretty woman on the other side.
Who honestly does such thing? Happy if you want to call me out on this or call me 'naive'.

You're assuming you speak for the average man and that you are the authority in what constitutes a pretty girl.

That's one woman in her early twenties and you've decided all pretty girls who like to wear make up aren't worth your time?

Ok.

Both of those examples you've given are people saying that now they aren't getting attention, they like it better. They are sharing their lived experiences not saying that it's better to be ugly.

Which contradicts your blanket statements.

And what statistics? Please show evidence. I know that personally, I wouldn't be happier if I wasn't being taken seriously at work, because that's an important part of my life/who I am. And I have seen it in action that the "beautiful women" are treated like airheads in all industries I've worked in.

Share your sources please.

I didn't read past your first childish line.
Done with you.

@XChrome Why don't you ask them if they meant they are ugly?

Why don't you get a dictionary and look up the word "obtuse"?

My point was that people who are attractive or beautiful are immensely priveleged over those of us who are unattractive. Some people in this thread tried to put together some very bizarre and backwards arguments to try to argue that being attractive is not a good thing. However, the data and statistics show that this is not the case, and that people who are attractive have more career success, are more likely to have friends, and more likely to have relationships than other people.

That's it. Being obtuse or presenting "whatabout" arguments about BAME people doesn't change any of that.

Why don't you ask them if they meant they are ugly?

Attractive and unattractive are on a spectrum. Beautiful is on one end and ugly is on the other. Some people are pretty, but not beautiful. That doesn't make them "less beautiful" because they are not beautiful at all. The same applies to ugliness. Most people are not ugly at all, they are merely average in looks.
It's like calling a very short person "less tall" or a very tall person "less short". The short person isn't tall at all and the tall person isn't short at all. A person in between those extremes would be average height.

@XChrome You implied age and size equates to ugly. Nobody else did.

Well yes, they did.

Less attractive does not mean more ugly.

Yes it does. Ugly and attractive are on a spectrum. Being less attractive means being more ugly, and vice versa.

Less attractive, as I said, could mean average in looks.

Yes, so a person who is average in looks is more ugly than someone who is above average in looks. That's what I just explained.

I think you are being shifty. You implied age and size equates to ugly. Nobody else did. Own it.

Less attractive does not mean more ugly. Ugly is the extreme end of unattractiveness. Less attractive, as I said, could mean average in looks.

The implication is only that men don't go after older and bigger women the way they do young, pretty, thinner women.

I think you're being obtuse. The implication is that they are less attractive, or more ugly, and therefore, men don't bother them anymore. That's the point.

You've made yourself very unpopular in that derail @mansviewpoint

I CBA to read it all, but if you are in any way well intentioned, I would suggest that username is a DISASTER. It's more or less a synonym for "Man here!...<chunters on mansplaining>". I would change it.

I feel like I’ve sort of experienced both sides of this coin, because I was a lot like the woman you describe when I was 15 years younger; the proverbial ‘hot mess’. Now I am overweight and early 40s and don’t get any of that attention / validation anymore. However, I did get my act together in my 30s and built a career, bought a home, saved some money. I am single but with good family and friends like you. The latter option (your situation) is way, way better imo.

Just zip it, @mansviewpoint. You’re now mansplaining your own mansplaining in some kind of endless, verbose meta.

It’s not genuine, but they do need some help.

Ah thank you. Yes I suppose that was dumb of me to put. I wasn't trying to offend but now I see that saying that was a bit bloody obvious. My girls didn't notice that when I asked them... they are 15, 17 and 24 and that's why I always want to understand a woman's perspective more. So I'll point out to them in a minute what I did and explain it to them the best I can.
They have all been harassed by knobheads and one was sexually assaulted and although i try to understand what they go through i obviously never experienced that. I just didn't think that pointing out the obvious would also make me a knob. Or perhaps more to the point I didn't think.
I'd like to apologise again to all those I offended.

You're just assuming life is easier for her because she’s pretty.

It basically boiled down to this:

mansviewpoint: I am about to say something that I know will piss women off.

Also mansviewpoint: What, what did I say? I just can't understand why I didn't get a good reaction. Won't you please explain it to me like I'm five?

And also mansviewpoint: Aaaah, you think I'm mansplaining! Obviously you're wrong but I am so reasonable and rational that I will let it go now that I have unravelled the mystery of why nobody liked what I said.

A man offering his opinion is not automatically mansplaining. Sometimes men offer insightful and intelligent contributions to discussion. Unfortunately starting a post by stating something so obvious it barely warrants the effort to type it, that "men notice pretty girls first" as though you're giving us some unique and hitherto unknown glimpse into the male psyche, is not an example of that.

This is why men shouldn't try pass agg. It just never works.

Not mansplain as much as make women the shallow baddies in your life story while you project every shit stereotype on them, lecture them about it, pre-emptively accuse them of being hysterical, and then pretend that you just don't understaaaand and that your subsequent questions are actually genuine and good faith because how could you possibly not be a welcome shining light? But like I said, I knew you couldn't understand.

I am glad I'm not going to be subjected to these questions any further and I'd be gladder still if you stopped talking to me entirely. I dislike it immensely.

I get where you are coming from, pretty privilege is a real thing, but as she gets older that will fade, and the attributes you have will remain.

I had a friend whose only real attribute was being pretty, and now she's in her 60s it's a real problem for her, she honestly relied so much on flirting to get through life and she can't do that any more.

So don't be jealous.

I hope you feel better about yourself soon OP, sounds like you are a successful woman, congratulations.

Please don't let the genetic luck of the draw and society's definition of physical beauty blind you to your best traits.

This lady has a lot of problems and stress in her life. Peace of mind is worth a thousand times that. Looks will fade over time and unwanted attention is invasive and frightening. Better to be happy and content in yourself and have people drawn to you because they like you for you, not for your looks.

Ah now I get it, you think I'm trying to mansplain. I really wasn't but I guess just giving my viewpoint and being a man has made me hit that category. I apologise profusely and will stop asking you any more questions.