I would swap with her in an instant

Yes women like Cleopatra and Anne Boleyn used something more than looks. They had great intelligence, wit, charm, allure, mystery and force of personality. Arguably they were fascinating. Anne Boleyn changed the entire course of British history despite not meeting 16th century beauty standards. And Cleopatra influenced the early formation of the Roman Empire.

Not many women in history had that impact but they are worth studying for a true picture of what makes a woman really captivating besides simply looking pretty.

Just been reading about Bridgette Bardot 😔

Deeply scarred and reclusive now and perfect example of how good looks just get you used.

Extreme good looks attract the wrong type of attention I'd say.

Oh really? I always thought Anne was described as beautiful but maybe you're right- maybe she was just super charming/vivacious hence him being so captivated.

Cleopatra was by all accounts not classically beautiful either but she captivated men by her intelligence, wit and charm too and had men falling all over her

SerafinasGoose

I'm so sorry about what you've been through.

Yes, invisibility and freedom from creepery is great, though it's not total invisibility like I had hoped it would be. It's definitely better though.

Anne Boleyn was not considered beautiful for the time. Her eyes and demeanour were considered compelling and she dressed fashionably. But she was not considered a great beauty.

Catherine Howard was considered beautiful. She got her head chopped off just like Anne did. The 'plain Jane' Jane Seymour was the wife who did good and Henry requested to be buried next to.
So looks didn't do anyone any favours!

Or Anne Boleyn - she was apparently a looker and got her head chopped off. At least Anne of cleves got to live!

Oh dear could be worse ....you could of been anne of cleves

We are making the same point. Neither of us seem to think that simply having blonde hair makes a woman attractive. It isn’t an automatic pass. Features are more important. I didn’t/don’t see the outward beauty woman I referred to as to be honest her facial features are not beautiful (in my eyes).

Aa for hair dye, I follow a number of gtey blending hairdressers on Istagram. Every one recommends dying hair blonde as it’s the easiest way to cover greys apparently while not being too harsh a contrast with white skin.

For younger people, we are brought up with the All American Girl look on teenage soaps.

I don’t dislike blonde hair. Far from it, my own daughter has long blonde hair and blue eyes. I can see with my own eyes that there is a girl with dark hair in her class that is every bit as pretty and has more attractive facial features than my DD.

I agree about money, which is definitely the most powerful advantage. It can't solve everything but it does solve most things.

We do. But the taste of not admiring slim blonde women seems over represented amongst women from my observations. With lots of women apparantly not 'seeing it' where such women are concerned. I've seen numerous threads along the lines of 'what's all the fuss about blondes?' Where people come on to say they don't admire the look, being rather rude in many cases, in a way you'd never see about brunettes or red haired women. Which is strangely at odds with blonde being such a popular colour to dye hair to, and the other MN stereotype of the beautiful tall blonde DD.

I agree with the poster who said beauty is facial rather than about hair colour, so find it difficult to understand why people say they don't find blonde women attractive as these women can have a range of features from plain to beautiful just like women with other hair colours.

You cannot be serious! Give your head a wobble

Walkingaroundjardine your comment about your daughter struck a cord with me. I met an old school friend the other week (not seen in nearly ten years) and when I mentioned my daughter (who is a highly skilled professional after studying for years to progress in her career) all this friend could comment on was how beautiful she was! Yes she is attractive, but that is the least important thing about her and she has struggled with many issues despite her looks. I live by Judge Judy's maxim, as I watch wrinkles increasing on my own face "Beauty fades, dumb is for ever!" Men may be attracted to beautiful women, but it's a shallow and self serving attraction. My Mum used to tell me to be proud of all I have achieved, as what I look like will get less and less important as I and all my contemporaries age. This was one of the best bits of advice she ever gave me!

No it's my fault @SerafinasGoose - I'm off work with a bit of a fever and clearly need to slow down & read more carefully.

Apologies that this didn't come across as clearly as I meant it to in my post.

Oh I thought you weee telling me off.

Because I was agreeing with you, and saying why.

When the Barbie film came out, there was an epidemic of men online declaring Margot Robbie to be "mid", and an awful lot of posters on here declaring that they couldn't understand why she was considered to be so very beautiful.

I can accept that she might not be everyone's preferred type, but anyone claiming that they literally can't understand why she's considered a conventional beauty is frankly lying.

Why did you direct that rant at me @SerafinasGoose?

I was taking exception to the idea that the woman was "coasting on her look".

Yes, it's a bit of a cliche. I'm not sure being beautiful makes you any more likely to be born with a shit personality or a weak character or a lack of intelligence any more than an average looking person. Although I suppose if you are told you are beautiful your entire life by everyone, not just your parents, then it will become a huge part of your identity and perhaps shape your character in ways that might not be positive.

You could lack confidence in your ability to do anything other than merely stand there looking lovely. You could question whether you ever got that job on merit or just because you looked nice. Your peers in school and the workplace might make accusations that you get preferential treatment from a teacher or better pay rises or whatever, because of your looks and whether that's true or not, it's hard to defend yourself against. And even if it is true, it's not your fault.

You might find yourself shunned or distrusted by envious women. You might find that the men you like daren't approach, assuming you are out of their league. If you ever dare speak to someone that is in a relationship, even in the most casual or platonic of ways, you will be watched like a hawk but their partner.

You might find you are treated like an object or a trophy and that all anyone wants to talk to you about is your looks, not about who you are or what you think about anything. It might make you arrogant and entitled. It might make you simper and bat your eyelashes to get people to do things for you, because you've learned from an early age that it works. It might make you shallow and insecure because you obsess over staying beautiful and fear ageing. If it's such a huge part of your identity that must be scary, especially if you've earned a living on the back of your looks and your looks alone.

It's funny you should say that, because an ex family member of mine once actively discriminated against a very competent, and also very beautiful, woman whom she interviewed for a job, on the grounds that she would create too much of a distraction for the men in the office! This was about twenty years ago. I was astonished at that revelation, but she (ex family member) was quite matter-of-fact about it.

Because it's permissible to be intelligent and plain, or very attractive and stupid. Even this thread is evidence of the fact that society can't seem to compute a woman who is both at the same time. It's a possibility some posters upthread haven't even considered.

I'm nearly 6 ft tall and was, until recently, quite athletic (until a serious riding accident put paid to that). I'm not a classic 'beauty', whatever that means, but I was fortunate in my genetics. I had a horrible time in the jobs I took on after school, with people calling me a bimbo and assuming I was completely gormless. I am, in fact, extremely good at English and unlike some of the other secretaries could spell and construct a grammatically-accurate sentence. At school, before I blossomed, I had a reputation for being the clever one because I was bookish. I was bullied for being the 'geek' and, because I was a late-developer, for having a flat chest. I also took shit because of my height: to the extent that I never wore anything but flat shoes. The sexism was off the scale.

And when I did fill out and develop? At fifteen I was raped twice, once being a gang rape, the other non-consensual sex (ie also rape, but I didn't realise it at the time) with the boy I thought I loved. I've fallen for plenty of would-be partners who haven't wanted me in return. I've been in relationships with men who treated me extremely badly. I studied from BA to PhD because I was bored witless with the tedious office jobs I'd taken on (to earn a salary as quickly as possible, leave home and escape my abusive father). I then discovered sexism in universities is absolutely rife. I've been the target of sexual harrassment by an older male colleague who continued stalking me after they fired him. I had to involve the police.

Riding on the back of looks? Not a bit of it. Did looks give me an easier ride in life? Did they hell. Did I earn my position and academic status on merit? Every bit of it. And now I'm likely on the cusp of that oft-lamented age of invisibility which apparently affects women but not men.

I can't wait. Bring it the fuck on.

Beautiful types sometimes have no personality and can lack the grittiness to cope when things go wrong. Then they really fall apart.

I hear this a lot, but I've known a lot of people who lack resilience and they really haven't all been stunners.

That is so well expressed! And true, I fear.

Of course they aren't. What these women often have is that unusual, slightly other worldly, quirky beauty about them, like Anya Taylor Joy. Or they are just not exceptionally pretty or exceptionally beautiful, which is what we are accustomed to seeing as 'normal' on TV, especially in America. They are merely 'normal looking' which in Hollywood terms is practically considered 'ugly.'

If they were actually ugly, or even just less attractive than average, they certainly wouldn't be getting lead roles in big TV shows.

I disagree. Some women with these features are beautiful, not necessarily all of them are just because they fit a certain mould.

I also don’t find blonde men particularly attractive or men who do body building. We all have different tastes thankfully.