I would swap with her in an instant

You really need to stop seeing male attention as some kind of prize.

If I may,
I get the stuff about unwanted attention.
However, when I was younger, I was very attractive/interesting.
There were very few "proper" opportunities for young women then (former Communist country).
I made a very good life for myself, needles to say in this case it was the looks.
(And being a bit wiser perhaps than my counterparts by the very tough upbringing my generation endured).

ultimately my friend still has the upper hand when it comes to dating

A small part of life, OP.
Which apparently you don’t even care about:

I'm not even desperate to date, which is a good job as in the three years I haven't had anyone, not one man, make any effort to talk to me.

If, in fact, you would like to date, then if you put yourself out there (dating apps, making a conscious effort to meet people in places you’d likely find someone with similar interests etc) then you’ll find it’s not that bleak. But you have to take control not wait for it to happen.

Either be genuinely fine with being single, so this shit doesn’t matter, or admit to yourself you’d like a relationship and make steps to getting one. Don’t lie to yourself either way.

I was very beautiful as a young woman and quite frankly I didnt want the attention. It attracted the wrong kind of man every time. I had three unhappy marriages. I never found happiness with men. Its just as well I had brains too because Im mid 60s now, am fat and have lost my looks entirely as I didnt age well. But I have a successful career, a nice home and a lovelyvDS. No man in mylife. Im happier than Ive ever been in my life.
You can keep good looks. They brought me no joy at all.

👆👆👆👆

(edited to say that this are pointing fingers because I agree, not middle fingers because I don’t)

ultimately my friend still has the upper hand when it comes to dating. She can work on everything else, and it doesn't seem to matter too much to men either.
Does it not depress the shit out of you sometimes? Especially if you are single. When I was married I gave less of a shit. I'm not even desperate to date, which is a good job as in the three years I haven't had anyone, not one man, make any effort to talk to me. They just treat me like a man.

Dear God OP this is really awful now.

Who the fuck cares about getting lots of opportunities to date...if you still can't settle down or marriage doesn't work out? Which happens to lots of extremely beautiful women!! Look at someone who appears to have it all, like Beyonce for e.g. who was cheated on!

And pretty women can be lonely, end up single or settling too.

She can work on everything else,

Maybe. Maybe not!!

Sometimes you just don't have the qualities that make that possible. It can be bloody hard being pretty but having to fake confidence or competence when it doesn't come naturally and you end up in lots of dead ends, like losing your job. Or you find general life stuff more difficult to navigate than others.

You lack diversity of life experience to think in such binary ways about people who are objectively good looking.

The most depressing thing about this post is how desperate you sound for male validation.

If you need male validation, you'll be fishing in the sleazy end of the pool.

What people find off-putting is being around people who are relentlessly bitter or negative or pessimistic. Or people who have a persecution of victim complex. It's draining. So if my 'plain and fat' friend wanted to wallow and feel sorry for herself or constantly bang on about how everyone else was better looking than her then she'd be seen as that plain, fat woman first and foremost. As it is, no-one sees that past the first 20 minutes of knowing her. She has a really great job, legions of fans and a husband who adores her. I think there is a lesson there. There are certain things about ourselves we cannot change, but we can always choose to change our outlook on life

Exactly.

I posted earlier about my two beautiful friends who don't enjoy the attention and hassle they get from men.
I'd also like to point out that neither of them have charmed lives because of their beauty. Both are single - I'm not saying it's bad to be single. It can be very good!! But the fact is neither of them want to be single and they've had very difficult love lives so far. They both wanted children and are now approaching 50 and it hasn't happened for them. One is unemployed and one is in a job she hates.
I really fail to see how being beautiful has given them wonderful lives. The only difference is they get a lot of unwanted attention from men. I absolutely wouldn't want to trade my life for theirs.
I think you're deluded OP.

I've known a few beautiful people who are either not very nice or just terribly dull or really dim or have no sense of humour. Flat. One dimensional. Forgettable. You only have to watch a couple of series of Love Island to see that. Obviously on LI no-one is goes in looking less than 7 out of 10, but it's frequently not the most beautiful ones who are the most popular, on the Island itself or with the viewing public.

In the end, you are nothing without a decent personality even if you aren't especially clever. Being clever is an advantage, but people will forgive you for not being Brain of Britain if you are lovely and kind, wise, warm and funny. They won't forgive dull or spiteful or arrogant, no matter what you look like.

I've also known people who I found quite plain when I first met them, but after a bit of time in their company that all changed. Thinking of one woman in particular, she's not conventionally pretty, quite overweight, but she has a smile and a presence and a relentless positivity that lights up a room. She's witty and warm and funny but never too much. She's not loud, or fake or pantomime jolly, it's very natural and genuine. It's impossible to not feel happy when you are around her. She's like sunshine in human form and I find it hard to believe there can be a person on the planet who, if they knew her, would not feel the same. To me she's one of the most beautiful people ever and I can't even think about her without smiling. I even see her differently in physical sense now.

It's the same when you meet a bloke who you don't fancy at all at first, but once you get to know him and realise you are falling in love with fall in love his personality he starts to give you the uncontrollable fanny gallops.

Being beautiful is great, I imagine, but it's honestly not everything. It will get you so far, it will certainly open doors, literally and metaphorically, but in the end it probably won't save you from any of life's shit.

What people find off-putting is being around people who are relentlessly bitter or negative or pessimistic. Or people who have a persecution of victim complex. It's draining. So if my 'plain and fat' friend wanted to wallow and feel sorry for herself or constantly bang on about how everyone else was better looking than her then she'd be seen as that plain, fat woman first and foremost. As it is, no-one sees that past the first 20 minutes of knowing her. She has a really great job, legions of fans and a husband who adores her. I think there is a lesson there. There are certain things about ourselves we cannot change, but we can always choose to change our outlook on life.

Good looking privilege is definitely a thing...but theres so many other things at play that it doesn't get you that far.
I think being good looking makes getting dates easier but finding a deeper connection harder.

Your life sounds very together while hers is falling apart. Men smiling or holding doors open is not nearly as useful as a good career and being able to pay the bills.

If you swapped lives with her you would want to swap back within 10mins of stressing about how to pay the bills. Really flippant attitude to your "friends" very real problems.

Your update describes exactly why you are experiencing this. You seem to have split the world into "winners" and "losers". It's not a competition.

If you view the world in this way then you will get exactly what you expect.
If you want to continue down this road then thats your choice but at least accept that you are the common denominator here and its you that is causing this to happen, not the fact that there are some very pretty women who have the gall to merely exist.

I understand what you are saying. Even when she is at her lowest point, you believe she is still holding a better hand of cards than you will ever have, and that’s unfair.

Buy nobody has it easy, there is no road without a turn in it.

They crossed the street to walk closer to her.

What? That's creepy.

Absolutely ridiculous statement. You have no idea if someone pretty has had an easy life, you don’t know what trauma she might have been through, if she has a hard time being taken seriously, if when something horrible happens, her horrible friends objectify her rather than have any empathy.

I was pretty when I was younger, I was also sexually abused by my dad from the age of three, and wondered if maybe it wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t been a cute looking toddler, I’ve blamed myself a lot, I was then raped by someone else at 15. My mum has always been iced cold and unsupportive, always seemed to resent me and would never help me, even when I left my first abusive boyfriend at 19 and asked her for a tenner so I could feed myself until payday, and she said no.

Have more men opened doors for me? I don’t know, maybe, but I’ve opened just as many for others. Do you think that’s worth the objectification and awful childhood? Don’t judge a book by its cover, you have no clue what they’ve been through.

I am very unattractive. I wouldn't call myself particularly successful - I am neither a high flyer nor wealthy - but I am financially comfortable and have been in stable employment all my adult life (as far as anyone's employment can be stable these days). I was an academic high-flyer but it didn't translate into career success. I am married to someone who loves me as I am. I have always managed my money very carefully on the general principle of not buying things I can't afford.

Would I swap places with someone who was beautiful but (based on your description) not very clever and bad at managing their money?

I've often thought I'd give a lot for the experience of being beautiful, even if only for one day - having people look at me with admiration, seeing my reflection and not cringing, having men go out of their way to be polite and helpful.

In a way, it's not a fair question because if I were to swap into your friend's body and life which is falling apart, but keep my own mind, I have the benefit of 50 years managing to get along without 'beauty privilege' to start sorting myself out and I would have a sense of being really happy, despite everything, to suddenly look so amazing.

If I just 'became' her, I wouldn't appreciate the huge advantage I had gained and would just be plunged into the turmoil she's in, which no one would want.

Being a man is even easier and comes without all this BS.

So yes I'm happy with my lot in life, but the fact remains that we live in a very looks orientated society and men don't really seem to give a shit about what I bring to the table. Because I'm not hot

So, are you saying that every single person you know who is in a relationship is "hot"?

Because thats bollocks too- you only have to walk down the street to see that couples of all levels of attractiveness are in relationships. If it wasnt so, then only supermodels would be coupled up and everyone else would be permanently single but they arent are they? so how do you explain that.....

Your problem is your attitude, it's coming across as jealous and bitter and thats deeply unattractive to everyone.

In my younger ‘prettier’ days I was followed four times by men (could have been more but these I was aware of) and it was bloody frightening. One of the times I ended up contacting my brother who was working close by because I was afraid of going any further (I was walking home and knew I’d be entering a quieter road). Luckily by brother came and walked me home.

Another time I ended up confronting him (in a shop) and shouted at him to leave me alone (he denied he was following me but he clearly was following me from shop to shop), the third was particularly scary as again I turned round to confront him and he was wearing a bloody balaclava! I took my stiletto off (it was the 80s) and chased him down the road with it shouting at him (as scared as I was would try and channel anger rather than fear).

The fourth one was really scary and I ended up having police protection for a few days (I have to say the police were fantastic and were literally parked outside my home - this again was the 80s).

I got harassed and hassled everywhere I went, I was considered very attractive but the reality was I was very shy, very reserved, very introverted. I just wanted to be left alone.

I think that’s why now, in my sixties, overweight and ‘plain’, I truly love being invisible.

I wonder how I would have been treated if I had behaved that way.

You’d have been fired. Just like her. You’re reading way too much into this, her ex boss wants to get into her knickers, it’s as simple as that.

@Cookiecrumblane

I think potentially you are looking for the wrong kind of man.

The kind who wants a partner, aren't bothered about who earns the money as long as it's coming in to fund the life you want to build together and are looking at women as a person are out there.

However, they also may not be "hot" or built or have women hanging all over them. They may be the ones in the background who are nervous to approach the "4/10" as you described it because they see them as a 10/10 and think they're out of their league.

Widen your net.

Has it occurred to you that the reason people like her is because she's a nice person?

OP, despite their overrepresentation in media, beautiful women are a small minority and most women are ordinary looking. Beautiful women certainly have some advantages, though they definitely aren't an assurance of a perfect life, but the vast majority of women aren't conventional stunners. You aren't at as much of a disadvantage as you probably think. Just being a woman of any description is more of a disadvantage than not being a stunning one.