Page 4 | To think there is no more money?

Rainbowsponge · 2024-07-24T19:17:10+00:00

And Labour have admitted this. So many threads saying X or Y needs to be ‘properly funded’ (even though most of the time our spending is actually in line with comparable countries), but no acknowledgment of the fact there’s no money to spend. And when you bring it up, posters completely ignore you or accuse you of being Jacob Rees Mogg [hmm] Wouldn’t the quality of debate be improved if we stopped burying our heads in the sand?

whichwankerdunnit · 25/07/2024 23:22

Rummly · 25/07/2024 19:38

That’s not ‘thinking through’. It’s making up a subject that isn’t what’s being asked on this thread.

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lol you’re a little bit too obtuse and argumentative. Don’t you have anything better to do— when a comment is over your head?

venus7 · 25/07/2024 22:36

Tryingtokeepgoing · 25/07/2024 21:48

Nearly 80% of employees have a work place pension. Sure, that includes government employees, but they make up less than 20% of the workforce according to the Office for National Statistics. So I’d quite like to see your workings. I don’t see how that can add up.

then there’s the minor issue of lower profits leading to lower corporation tax and less income for HMRC. Who will then have to put up tax rates, which means companies will have to put up prices.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/workplacepensions

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/timeseries/db36/pse

Edited

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I'm sure you're right.

joles12 · 25/07/2024 22:07

MidnightPatrol · 24/07/2024 20:27

Everyone needs to be paying more tax, and we need to address our complex in-work benefits system, funding models for pension provision, NHS etc.

Its not realistic to have an expansive state benefits system, with an increasingly dwindling pool of people funding it.

Agreed @MidnightPatrol The bigger problem than the state pension is the DB schemes for nearly all public servants so millions of ex teachers/ NHS / military / police etc are on pensions for life at about 50% of their salary if they work for 25 years! This is an unfunded liability that is just growing every year as life expectancy is longer and salaries increase

Alexandra2001 · 25/07/2024 22:04

taxguru · 25/07/2024 11:55

If Amazon paid ALL those working within and for it, an extra pound per hour then it would be bankrupt! Just do the Maths! The owner could give up his profits but all the staff would be barely any better off and would still be claiming benefits!

I did an analysis of Tesco's accounts once a few years ago. If their profits were zeroised and all staff were paid a bonus, it would have worked out something like a pound per week, and without profits, there'd be no investment, development, etc., so the firm would be crippled and ultimately collapse - for £1 per worker per week! The profit "per store" was actually pretty similar to the profit made by smaller/independent stores on a size basis, so basically Tesco don't make excessive profits - it's just because they have hundreds of stores that the overall figures "look big"!

It's all a numbers game.

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But not all Tesco workers are claiming in work benefits, so your analysis is incorrect.
Same with Amazon...

Tesco etc make billions each and every year, its absurd to suggest they couldn't afford to pay their lowest paid workers more, thereby reducing the reliance on the state.

The same goes for many other companies making billions eg The Range.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 25/07/2024 21:48

venus7 · 25/07/2024 21:19

Many people have no company pension, and if companies profits were lower, prices would be lower, lower pensions would suffice.

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Nearly 80% of employees have a work place pension. Sure, that includes government employees, but they make up less than 20% of the workforce according to the Office for National Statistics. So I’d quite like to see your workings. I don’t see how that can add up.

then there’s the minor issue of lower profits leading to lower corporation tax and less income for HMRC. Who will then have to put up tax rates, which means companies will have to put up prices.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/workplacepensions

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/timeseries/db36/pse

Workplace pensions - Office for National Statistics

Pensions linked to a person's workplace, including defined ambition (DA), defined benefit (DB) and defined contribution (DC) schemes.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/workplacepensions

venus7 · 25/07/2024 21:19

Tryingtokeepgoing · 25/07/2024 21:03

Then most people’s pensions would be worth less. So they’d have to save more for retirement. Back to square one - no better off.

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Many people have no company pension, and if companies profits were lower, prices would be lower, lower pensions would suffice.

GingerPirate · 25/07/2024 21:06

YourKindPeachMaker · 24/07/2024 20:26

Funny how “there’s no money left” gets wheeled out whenever talking about child poverty, disability benefits, NHS, education and the like, but you never hear it uttered when it comes to military aid.

And carers.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 25/07/2024 21:03

venus7 · 25/07/2024 19:47

What if businesses were satisfied with a smaller profit?

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Then most people’s pensions would be worth less. So they’d have to save more for retirement. Back to square one - no better off.

venus7 · 25/07/2024 20:57

Santina · 25/07/2024 20:42

Every time Labour has been in Government, they have borrowed well beyond their means. They end up getting voted out and the Conservatives have had to bail out the country. It has never been any different in the past, don't expect it to be any different this time.

It was certainly different in the last administration.

venus7 · 25/07/2024 20:56

Rummly · 25/07/2024 20:32

Why? It’s the medium for the activist left. He hasn’t changed that.

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Of course he has.....

NoWordForFluffy · 25/07/2024 20:52

Dibbydoos · 24/07/2024 22:39

The economy is many times worse than Labours joke about no money being left - its like this after every Tory government (facts can be found in gov stats if anyone doesn't believe me).

But we need to invest to get a return so we can kick start the economy.

Gordon Brown was a brilliant Chancellor of the Exchequer and Rachel will follow him to be a great Chanceller because she has experience as well as heart. She is prioritising on the basis of value and returns so not everything will get all the funding it needs right away.

Sometimes we need to trust the process. This is one of those times.

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Not true.

Rummly · 25/07/2024 20:50

Kjpt140v · 25/07/2024 20:43

Oh you want to be political. Unfortunately the nation has decided. You don't seem to have a clue, other than repeating Daily Mail headlines.

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Top response. Really good. 🙄

Kjpt140v · 25/07/2024 20:43

Rummly · 25/07/2024 20:37

Those are either good ideas gone bad, like HS2 (unlike Brown’s mania for PFI which was a bad idea gone even worse) - trivial (wallpaper - also see Derry Irvine under Blair) or untrue (‘money for mates’ 🙄).

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Oh you want to be political. Unfortunately the nation has decided. You don't seem to have a clue, other than repeating Daily Mail headlines.

Santina · 25/07/2024 20:42

Every time Labour has been in Government, they have borrowed well beyond their means. They end up getting voted out and the Conservatives have had to bail out the country. It has never been any different in the past, don't expect it to be any different this time.

Rummly · 25/07/2024 20:37

Kjpt140v · 25/07/2024 20:28

Have you been asleep for the last five years? Don't you have any idea how the Tories have spent our money? Shall we start HS2 or wasted money on PPE, or money for mates, wallpaper?

Those are either good ideas gone bad, like HS2 (unlike Brown’s mania for PFI which was a bad idea gone even worse) - trivial (wallpaper - also see Derry Irvine under Blair) or untrue (‘money for mates’ 🙄).

Rummly · 25/07/2024 20:32

venus7 · 25/07/2024 20:28

I think the fact that he owns it is slightly more pertinent than him posting on it.

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Why? It’s the medium for the activist left. He hasn’t changed that.

venus7 · 25/07/2024 20:28

Rummly · 25/07/2024 20:14

Yes, I was aware that he owns X. He also posts on it.

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I think the fact that he owns it is slightly more pertinent than him posting on it.

Kjpt140v · 25/07/2024 20:28

Have you been asleep for the last five years? Don't you have any idea how the Tories have spent our money? Shall we start HS2 or wasted money on PPE, or money for mates, wallpaper?

edwinbear · 25/07/2024 20:27

https://www.ft.com/content/84c596d0-c192-4903-a228-abec6e938095

Public sector pensions…that’s where most of our money goes. It’s a huge issue and needs addressing. But obviously Labour won’t consider touching them.

Public service pensions are the elephant in the room

Asset-backing these promises could lift investment and growth

https://www.ft.com/content/84c596d0-c192-4903-a228-abec6e938095

oObyeOo · 25/07/2024 20:19

Money doesn’t exist. They can produce it from thin air

oObyeOo · 25/07/2024 20:19

AvocadoDevil · 24/07/2024 20:19

Lol, there may be no more money, but there is always more debt available if a government wants to spend - just look at the insane waste during covid.

Plus the amount they fund to foreign wars

Alicewinn · 25/07/2024 20:17

AvocadoDevil · 24/07/2024 20:19

Lol, there may be no more money, but there is always more debt available if a government wants to spend - just look at the insane waste during covid.

This - they’ll just print more

tennesseewhiskey1 · 25/07/2024 20:16

Surely - they will just up taxes and get the trillions and jillions from taxing the private schools?! Surely - SURELY they would have thought about this beforehand right?

MeandT · 25/07/2024 20:15

Is there no money? Well yes, there clearly is. Plenty of it circulates outside of the tax system (thanks 'carried interest' - the biggest glaring anomaly the Blair/Brown administration never dealt with and knew full well they should have!)

See also wealth tax/property tax/IHT/CGT.

But jump too fast and those with means will shift out of the UK entirely & if property prices fall 40% on the back of a deflating luxury/London housing market, those assets aren't worth anything - either to Joe Average or to the British taxpayer.

And yes, higher rate taxpayers probably should have been paying 2-3p on the pound more over the last 14 years to help fund infrastructure & education improvements which should have been made but weren't & now we're paying a generation of catch up.

While the NHS clearly needs funding & staffing addressed, one further wildly unpopular opinion which will need to be aired eventually is that as a nation, we are on average too fat, too sedentary & killing ourselves slowly with avoidable, reversible lifestyle diseases (which are very expensive to treat medically for 2-3 decades.

But again, 'BIG' food & pharma (and even media companies) have a financial interest in keeping us on the sofa & hoovering up processed snacks & the 'medicine' to undo the ill they cause. And they've funded Tory policies to ignore all the obvious solutions for decades too.

It's a LOT for any government to unravel! I can only wish Keir Starmer, his teams & MPs good luck & the hide of a rhino to even make a start...

Rummly · 25/07/2024 20:14

venus7 · 25/07/2024 20:11

Really...there's others?
He owns it.

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Yes, I was aware that he owns X. He also posts on it.