To think the US system if repeating grades is weird?

@Oopa
Education doesn't mean knowing a set amount of facts. It means being able to analyze material you read, hear, or see, form and express a coherent argument using evidence and drawing on rhetorical principles, and make connections between different disciplines.

Its a lot better than having kids finish high school not knowing how to read.

Do you not think each school year should have a minimum set level that the child should know at the end? School is for education

Yes to this.

Summer school can help a student to advance and skip a year or a semester, or it can be used to redo a class that a student has failed. One of my DCs did summer school mathematics two summers running to get on the AP Calc track. She essentially did six years of high school mathematics.

Many high schools offer significant academic support to struggling students. Monitoring of grades, work handed in, and participation in class is always ongoing thanks to the GPA system, so redoing a course in summer isn't always the only option.

Students can often drop out of a course and hop aboard another within a window at the beginning of each semester.

In most US schools from middle school on through high school (6th to 12th grade), students are placed on tracks according to ability and interest. They work at a level that is appropriate for their ability and style of learning, and can choose elective subjects they are interested in while still doing the subjects the state and the local school district require for graduation.

What this means is that a student in their freshman year in high school doing advanced/ honors algebra might have classmates who are aged 18, and advanced algebra is their final mathematics class after four years, where they started at remedial level as freshmen. There can also be freshman students sitting in calculus II class with students aged 17-18 because they have Russian parents started algebra at age 10. These kids will do engineering and comp science Advanced Placement courses for their remaining years of high school or can do further mathematics courses too, sometimes through local universities.

Or a student who can barely string a sentence together will do a remedial level English course that emphasises grammar and sentence structure in freshman year and progress to increasingly challenging courses, with elements such as spoken work poetry included to make the study of English relevant. They will probably not end up sitting in class with students who are on an honors/ literature analysis track from freshman year on.

My local high school offers multiple tracks for English and mathematics, and also several tracks for science. Students end up with a very individualized education.

Also worth mentioning that this is a country that doesn’t start specialising in terms of subjects as early as the UK. I believe this is the case in most of Europe?

All subjects must be studied to age 16 (including a minimum of 3 languages), then between 16 and 18 you do “specialise” but that means that instead of 10-12 subjects, you drop down to about 8.

In my region, at the A-level stage of education, we had to take 3 languages (2 of them with literature), history, philosophy, maths, and a basic science module (plus my school made PE and RE compulsory in the first year). On top of that, you have another 3-4 subjects from your strand. Biology / chemistry / physics / comp science if on the science strand, Latin / Greek / art history / geography / economics etc if on the humanities strand, and on it goes. There is also an art and music strand I believe.

The sheer amount of subjects studied all the way up to the uni admission exam, means that students really must have a grasp on at least 50% of the content taught, otherwise it’s impossible to keep up.

There are vocational schools that those children can go to instead, so they start learning a trade and take core subjects to the equivalent level of the compulsory secondary school exam. It’s an option used frequently for those who are in danger of repeating a second time, or clearly don’t have a shot at passing the final exams.

There are of course special needs schools too, for those who do put in the work, but will never be able to achieve the minimum requirements in a normal state school - they are not judged by the same standards in this case.

There is a clear difference between children who genuinely can’t (SEN, etc) achieve the same level as their peers, and children who won’t because they don’t put in the effort. Of course the system isn’t perfect and some students are failed by a lack of assessment or an inadequate one, when trying to determine which group they belong to.

That doesn't really happen any more.

A child who was struggling that badly would have an IEP and would be promoted along with his or her age cohort, possibly mainstreamed, possibly in a SN classroom.

Special Ed provision in schools in the US tends to be streets ahead of what is doled out parsimoniously in the UK.

Also common where I grew up.

IMO the benefits are twofold:

• Children get to learn/firm up assumed previous knowledge they will need to move further up the years.
• Children learn the value of responsibility and hard work - if you don't put the work in you'll have to bored hearing the same stuff again next year and still put the work in anyway. If you struggle a bit more than most, the sense of achievement when you get that pass is huge. Both things stay with you, and are a good thing.

Good to see so many posters agreeing that it would be a good thing in the UK too. The current system here is abysmal - and I am stupdily naive, as it never occurred to me that it could be about saving money!

8-9 is usually third grade, fifth grade is 10-11, and occasionally 12 year olds.

While far more rare, holding back or a school pushing for entry into a lower year group does happen in the UK. In the cases I know of, it was for children who had missed significant amounts of education mostly or a couple cases of families couldn't provide evidence of education who applied for entry to Year 10 by age where the school pushed for Year 9 entry. We also have schools with in with internal alternative provision where KS3 and KS4 children are being taught KS1 skills - and there is a massive growing need for this. All systems are trying to find ways to manage the issues around age not automatically meaning capability.

Many early schools in the US and elsewhere had children of different ages learning together and people passed up grades upon completion of testing, not by the calendar, and resources for additional support and spaces are slim so repeating was the most practical option.

It has grown much less common in the US the last few decades, as more places ban the practice for all but final year students, who may be required to repeat some classes or tests to meet school and state standards (though they may be encouraged to go the GED route instead, and may be required to do after a certain age). It's why there are so many US teachers complain about 'socially passing' children who have failed or school district policies refusing to allow children to be failed, the bans usually are implemented with the explanation of the social impact on children, though evidence-wise there is little support that simply repeating a year improves outcomes for most children without adding in additional support. I don't know of any school district that would enable 3 years of repeats, they'd usually then be moved into special education or alternative education routes well before that which works very differently in most districts I know. It's not unusual in some districts for those with significant additional education needs who can't be in their own grade academically to be in the same classroom with the same teacher the entire time they're at the school for academic or sometimes all subjects, so their actual grade doesn't matter that much.

There is no one US education system. Even within the same school district, it's possible for different elementary schools to have different entry requirements from birthdate cut off to developed school readiness skills (some kindergartens require kids to come in and demonstrate their skills before they can have a place). Different high schools, while having to meet state and local standards, will have different graduating requirements which can change each year. When I graduated, the grade before and after me had different state tests that had to be passed, and every high school in the city had different course requirements. There are state and local standards for content, but the curricula caries widely - I started high school at one where the maths were separate (Applied Maths, Algebra 1, Geometry...) and moved to a school where it was an integrated maths system more similar to the UK. There is also a growing trend in areas with local colleges or universities for high school students to do both high school and uni classes - some high schools even put university classes in their options for students now who can test in those programs.

International education studies do show that the US requirements in English and Maths for simply graduating are low compared to many other countries

I wouldn't argue that the US graduating standards aren't lower, it's fairly well known, it's why the US college system has general ed requirements and such a large community college and adult education system.

I would argue that international education studies have a very difficult time comparing very different systems and tend to rely on things like time required in education and state-required content for things like graduating requirements. This is why many countries, like all the nations of the UK, have bloated and pushed content down the curriculum in a dick waving contest among nations. It's similar to how nations including the UK changed the definition of how literate the population from how many can read and write to the amount of the population that has a certain number of years of schooling - it's not quite the same thing, but it's easier to compare. The US has also joined in on this dick waving, just more slowly.

More isn't always better. I personally prefer a lower level of content prioritised and focused on for general education that most of the general population use and can show they have attained than a higher level of content that give schools little breathing room and most are failing for little reason other than bragging to other countries. There is always a balance to be struck, but the US's 87% graduating with a high school diploma - requiring enough to pass 20-30 subjects well enough - does stand in contrast to less than 50% of English kids get a strong pass in English and maths GCSE. That schools can be rated good with 15% of kids meeting what is meant to be the basic standard boggles my mind.

Because work has to be differentiated for different DC. It's not the case of there being a set level they have to know to pass.

To add on to what others are saying. There is a lot of opportunity to make up and retake individual classes to gain credit once you are in HS. So it’s not that common to be held back a year by that point.

So let’s say you fail a semester of 10th grade history class. You would advance to 11th grade but then the next year you would take 11th grade history + retake a semester of 10th grade history. There is generally space with your elective courses to fit this in. The other option is that school’s offered some classes a summer classes so you could retake that 10th grade history in the summer between 10th and 11th grade.

There are kids who come up on graduation who don’t have enough overall or core credits to graduate, and they may come back for another year. But more likely they’ll finish in either an adult HS program, GED, or Summer School.

The max age generally comes into play for kids that are held back in the elementary grades and for HS age kids who have immigrated (maybe with little formal education or who are learning English)

I grew up in the States and went to highschool there. It was a modular system, so you needed to pass a certain number of classes in core subjects to be able to graduate. I changed highschools when we moved house after my freshman year, and the new highschool had a different expectation for core subjects to graduate, as a result I had to take a summer class to catch up. Summer school was a common option for kids who weren't passing core subjects; I don't remember coming across anyone who was actually held back a year. Maybe one or two people at most.

Yeah, nobody repeats first grade and second grade and third grade. I’ve never heard of anyone who repeated more than one grade in a normal classroom setting.

In my state, there are certain requirements for graduation in terms of courses that have to be passed to be a high school graduate. It is less than a full schedule of 4 years, but it will include things like 4 full year courses or ELA, 3 math, 3 science, 1 art, etc. The school district can add on additional requirements about course variety. For example, our district has a substantial technology requirement.

If you don’t get all your credits in all the required categories, then you can’t graduate. I believe the deadline is age 21, but I’m not sure. It’s not something that happens very often in our wealthy area. Students don’t tend to have the out of school stressors that prevent learning and I can attest from utilizing the services for my child that we have excellent special needs support.

The alternative is that a person can get a GED. Any adult who is old enough to have graduated from high school is eligible to take an exam instead. It is not as highly regarded as an earned diploma, but it is much better than not having any kind of credential.

It is not that the children are with their class and then at the end of the year they're informed that they need to repeat the grade. Parents will be involved through out the year and the children will get additional support and if it is apparent that they need something different then that is provided. If they missed school due to absence or due to lack of maturity and effort then repeating might help. It is also not a black and white system where people just keep repeating and 15yo are in school with 11 yo. It is a collaboration

In France it's common to repeat a year and also common to skip a year.
Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. I think the system of getting children to progress together by age at all cost here is terrible. I know one child who repeated a year here and it worked out great for them.

Depending on the state there is a maximum age for free public school. It ranges from 18-22 yo so that generally will be enough for someone to graduate from a traditional high school.

If someone ages out then they have the option for a private school (if they’ll accept them) but more likely they would transition to a GED program

The GED, which stands for General Educational Development^ but is also referred to as a General Education Diploma, is a set of tests that when passed certify the test taker (American or Canadian) has met high-school level academic skills. https://www.collegetransfer.net/AskCT/What-is-a-GED#:~:text=The%20GED%2C%20which%20stands%20for,high%2Dschool%20level%20academic%20skills.^

My DS was adopted at 3, summer born so started school at just 4, still struggling with everything that had happened in his life pre-adoption. He was always two steps behind his peers academically and emotionally, he never had a clue what the hell was going on, he never caught up.

I ended up home schooling him in Y8, when he was in KS3, gearing up for GCSEs. I discovered very early on in home schooling that he didn't know all four sides of a square were the same length and he didn't know his times tables at all, including 2x.

Some of the blame fell on me as a parent, but at home I was more concerned with his emotional wellbeing. I was letting school look after the academic side of things, I just tried to keep his anxiety at bay so he could function at school. I was aware he was behind, but still shocked that he got to Y8 without anybody flagging up to me just HOW FAR behind he was. How did that happen??

Out of interest, would you be comparing an 18 year old graduating American High school against a British 18 year old doing maths a level, or against the average 16 year old doing maths gcse?

I.e. comparing age group or basic arithmetic level at the compulsory level? Same with English.

I think repeating one year wouldn't be an issue - there are already big ages differences in UK classes between the child born on Sept 1 and the one born on 30 Aug. Also it seems to have become more and more popular, at least where I live to have "joint" classes so half year three, half year two etc.

Same with moving up a year which I understand is also a possibility in other countries, it seems to make a lot of sense rather than allow the brightest kids to grow bored and disruptive.

However more than a year or two, and particularly things like when you have 14 year olds going to uni, I could see being a problem.

Honestly it makes so much sense.

What doesn't make sense is a 15 year old sitting GCSEs that they will struggle to get 2/3s in, when they could just take them a year later and have a better chance of getting some 4s.

It's not a level playing field because a child living in poverty with 4 siblings and only one parent at home may just not have the support they need to do well. Compare that to a child from a dual income family with maybe 1 other sibling and lots of support.

I repeated year one it did me no harm.

Do you KNOW the systems in most countries?

I lived in a European country as a child. If you failed a year there, you resat the entire year - that was the system.

My father (Scottish) repeated a year - albeit a long time ago - cos he was a lazy arse who never applied himself. Don't think he learned anything from the experience, like, but there's always one.

Where I live on the continent this is the norm.
Very common in the 14-18 age bracket.

In my child's class there will be 7 fewer students next year because they will be repeating the year.
It sounds awful, but when the compulsory curriculum includes the study of subjects such as maths/ foreign languages to 18/19, you can't pick and choose topics here and there. They build on what has been learnt the previous year.

It gives the majority of students who repeat the chance to actually understand and those who progress, the chance to move forward rather than forever having to wait for those who are behind.

It is however within a system where there is a choice of school systems which include a very varied selection of both academic and vocational courses. The standard of maths required in a school which specialises in tourism and hospitality, or agriculture and horticulture say is not the same as one which specialises in STEM.

Children in school repeat exam years in the UK too.
You can also repeat the year at uni.