To think dressage is cruel and also ludicrous?

I think you’re on pretty safe ground with cat ownership. They take you for all you’ve got and treat you with complete disdain, but you love them anyway!

"I find it extraordinary that many within the equestrian community are rushing to defend her. "

Are they? Most people have disapproved quite strongly I think.

100%, Bella.

@hepsitemiz I am so upset by it all to be honest. I used to see Carl and Charlotte as the beacons of hope for improving horse welfare in dressage.

What makes it worse is seeing people who I follow, who I thought shared similar values, minimising it all. These are people who don't even have anything to loss by speaking out - they don't make their living from competing etc.

Will this lead to real change though? Not if the FEI have anything to do with it.

Oh, and I love Heather Moffett!

Absolutely... rollkur etc.

Carl and Charlotte were supposedly amongst the few who achieved the highest levels without resorting to cruelty. My mentor Heather Moffett visited them at their yard, approved of how they were training Valegro - based on what she saw during her visit, of course. Heather is very much classical dressage, not FEI.

FEI is annoying to say the least, because although they supposedly banned rollkur, they did nothing when the practice was seen in their warm-up arenas, and, as you say Bella, rewarded performances which could only have been the result of hours and hours of overbending.

No. Treating animals with cruetly is what's abhorrent, not the sport itself.

No different to parading animals around in the circus ring but the majority of enlightened people don't support this kind of cruelty these days.

Absolutely does not excuse that behaviour!

I find it extraordinary that many within the equestrian community are rushing to defend her. That's typical of the horse world: every time someone questions or criticizes abuse the response is always 'what you don't seem aware of...' or 'only people riding at that level could understand....'

No it's abuse. Plain and simple.

But what is 'cruel' about it?
Even untrained dogs will hang out near people, even when they're not hungry.

I agree. They have been bred and trained. Like the horses in dressage and racing.

A taxi driver told me the same thing about a dolphin park he went to in Mexico. Apparently they left the "gates open" every night for the dolphin to swin out into the ocean if they wanted. But the dolphin always came back to the park because they enjoyed it.

And yet, if I go for a walk and sit down randomly somewhere, my high-drive, very prey-driven dogs will quite quickly stop what they were doing and hang out within twenty feet of me.

They don't want to be left behind. They have had ample opportunities in their lives to fuck off, but they always come back. Dogs have been bred down the millennia to want to be with people.

IMO the issues with any form of animal competitions - and the only two I really know about are horses and dogs, so that’s basically what I’m referring to - come at elite level. There’s nothing wrong in principle with dressage or showjumping or dog agility. There are fear-free, humane ways to teach all disciplines and lots of evidence that animals enjoy them (albeit because they have been selectively bred to do so). The issues come when you get to elite level and movements or activities become more and more extreme, and there’s so much pressure to jump higher/faster/get those movements more extreme and precise. Then people can be tempted to cut corners and train using inhumane methods, or there’s an argument that the sport itself becomes inhumane (see the arguments about horse racing jump height etc).

I don’t have the answer, but I think the principle is that dressage and other activities are not inherently cruel - but what they become at elite level might be. It’s similar to the extremes human athletes go to. There’s a world of difference between going to amateur ballet lessons and being a professional dancer in terms of the things you put your body through, and the treatment you might get from a demanding coach.

I agree that the closer you look at our dealings with animals the less defensible they become. Dogs may be an exception as they have sought out humans and evolved alongside us but that doesn’t excuse the selective breeding of them for companionship.

Blood in mouth, blood from spurs, overly tight noseband etc.....it has been known for a long time but unfortunately it has taken indisputable evidence at a time where there would be wider public interest for action to be taken.

Most animal ownership is cruel if you think about it. Humans want it, animals don't. Hence why they need to be "broken" and "trained". It isn't natural. No one wants to be a captive. If alive, they should be wild and free.

Carl has, I'm not convinced about Charlotte although I used to be a fan. There have been reports about blood in the mouth etc.

There is a split in dressage between 'competitive' dressage as you would predominantly see in the olympics, grand prix events etc and 'classical dressage'.

Classical dressage - although certainly not problem free - promotes working with the horses natural movements in a force-free way. Many of those who train in classical dressage don't bother entering dressage competitions because many judges (including those at the highest level) reward very problematic riding and training. It has got to the point that often the only way you can achieve high marks is by training in a way which will damage the horse physically and mentally.

Dressage as is generally understood is an absolute disgrace and the FEI has shown itself to be absolutely unwilling to promote and protect the welfare of horses.

I have also been absolutely horrified at the equestrian communities reaction over the Charlotte Dujardin - the excusing, minimising and deflection has been so disheartening to see and I've seen it across all levels.

At this point, if we as horse riders find our entire sport being questioned by the public and losing our social license then we only have ourselves to blame.

What you don’t seem aware of is that Carl and Charlotte have made a softer and more gentle way of dressage riding much more acceptable rather than the dominant Germanic system that was popular

From my limited understanding, dressage isn't cruel, but they way it is taught can be. That should be your target OP.

No, they are not

Agree these are all wrong

We do know: stress ulcers and stereotypical behaviours such as weaving, cribbing and box walking. Skeletal issues such as kissing spines etc.

Not over jumps, not carrying people and not over a long distance.
As a horse owner/lover and proud owner of 4 ex-racehorses I hate racing and I hate more the excuses people use for. Backing and riding horses between 1-2yrs old etc. Using "they live like kings" when horses don't want to live like kings, they want to live like horses ie living outside, in herds with constant access to forage. There is a reason why 90% of horses in training have ulcers: stress!

I don't know anything about horses at all, but I can see why racing or jumping might be fun for both horse and rider. I don't understand the point of dressage.

I think this is a "we'll never know" thing... but I wonder if the horses actually enjoy it. They get exercise, hopefully not whipped/spurred, lots of attention and pampering. I know we can't ask them but they never seem in distress.