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TAs does your primary school have them?

185 replies

dhlihdhb · 23/07/2024 19:16

Apparently our primary school has decided they wont have any TAs next year other than those with a one to one. Is that the norm? Have to say am pretty disappointed but not sure how widespread that is.

OP posts:
neverbeenskiing · 24/07/2024 14:48

Not in our school. We are actually looking to increase our number of TA's but the biggest problem we have is struggling to recruit decent people. We interviewed 6 potential TA's the week before we broke up for summer, only 2 passed the basic skills assessment and they didn't interview well at all, so its gone back out to advert and we'll use agency until we can recruit permanent staff. At the moment we have 2 TA's in every class, we also have 3 HLTA's who cover classes and run interventions. All our EHCP children have TA support but not necessarily 1:1 unless this is actually specified in their plan, which is very unusual in this area unless they have personal care needs.

Harvestmoo · 24/07/2024 14:20

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 13:11

In all but very unusual circumstances, schools fund the first £6000.

This is what LAs want schools to believe. All EHCPs can be fully funded but LAs won’t do so unless forced. Section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014 means LAs are ultimately responsible for ensuring the SEP in F of EHCPs. That includes ensuring there is sufficient funding.

Fair enough, but regarding the majority of schools' budgets that is what is happening.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 24/07/2024 13:22

School budgets are in a terrible state as a result of all of the unfunded pay increases under the previous government.

What would you like your school to cut in order to carry on paying for the TAs?

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 13:17

Harvestmoo · 24/07/2024 13:13

Well of course it depends entirely on the needs of the child. If building independence isn't a target, it wouldn't be appropriate. But the wording '1:1' doesn't by definition mean an adult never ever leads their side (and the actual wording 1:1 is increasingly rare anyway).

Your post didn’t mention it sometimes being unlawful depending on F. You made it sound like that was the case all the time and it absolutely isn’t.

1:1 detailed, specified and quantified in F is only less common because of LAs trying to save money. Parents should appeal where 1:1 is reasonably required but not detailed, specified and quantified in F because the vast majority of appeals are upheld.

Harvestmoo · 24/07/2024 13:13

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 13:08

leaving a pupil for 3 or 4 minutes at a time then continually checking in to ensure they are on task. That is in no way illegal.

That depends entirely on the wording in F.

Well of course it depends entirely on the needs of the child. If building independence isn't a target, it wouldn't be appropriate. But the wording '1:1' doesn't by definition mean an adult never ever leads their side (and the actual wording 1:1 is increasingly rare anyway).

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 13:11

In all but very unusual circumstances, schools fund the first £6000.

This is what LAs want schools to believe. All EHCPs can be fully funded but LAs won’t do so unless forced. Section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014 means LAs are ultimately responsible for ensuring the SEP in F of EHCPs. That includes ensuring there is sufficient funding.

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 13:08

leaving a pupil for 3 or 4 minutes at a time then continually checking in to ensure they are on task. That is in no way illegal.

That depends entirely on the wording in F.

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 13:08

A well trained 1:1 deployed correctly (this doesn’t mean acting unlawfully by not providing the 1:1 derailed, specified and quantified in F) does not lead to dependence and does not replace the teacher. This is what LAs like to tell parents and schools. It misrepresents the research and is why so many parents are successful when they appeal to SENDIST. Michael Charles, a well regarded SEN solicitor, wrote an excellent piece on this.

Harvestmoo · 24/07/2024 13:05

IncessantNameChanger · 23/07/2024 23:20

My local authority pay my child's 1:1. That's how ehcps work. If schools are willingly giving out 1:1 and spending out of pocket by choice I'd eat my hat ( I don't have a hat btw). SEN budgets a LA level problem. I don't deny that sqeezes everything but schools aren't choosing this and neither can a parent just ask.

If my son had some early intervention as a toddler or before 5 maybe he wouldn't have needed his 60k per year special school but I'm sure that few thousand they saved delivering no speech therapy has helped offset their millions of debt ( paying for expensive education long intervention which is all too late to get back in mainstream as your now so far behind).

Austerity measures and lack of forward thinking created that.

In all but very unusual circumstances, schools fund the first £6000. If two children join even a tiny school (e.g. 50 pupils) who then need additional support, the school is expected to find the £6000 (X2) with no extra budget given. I agree if early intervention were in place, massive sums could be saved down the line.

Harvestmoo · 24/07/2024 13:03

I think it's interesting so many are focused on KS1 needing TAs. I'd argue it's much harder in KS2, when the gap between the highest and lowest is much bigger (I've taught all year groups at different points). It's almost impossible to support children still working at Y1 level and also teach the Y6 curriculum well.

Regarding 1:1s, LAs are furiously moving away from this wording. Children with EHCPs are often expected to have a constant timetable of 'interventions' (which may well be 1:1) to justify their TA support. It's ridiculous because often they would be better with the class teacher delivering the learning and a TA supporting them to access it. I agree with a pp though that a big part of a TA's job is encouraging independence and that might mean leaving a pupil for 3 or 4 minutes at a time then continually checking in to ensure they are on task. That is in no way illegal.

elliejjtiny · 24/07/2024 13:01

My dc primary school has 13 TA's. 1 form entry and a bulge class in year 4. There is one 1-2-1 TA for a child in reception, 3 TA's in the nurture room working with individual children and small groups. The rest are in the classrooms working with the whole class. I think that is a lot more than average but I know the head teacher prioritised TA's and uses quite a bit of the pupil premium money on making sure there are a lot of them.

BrumToTheRescue · 24/07/2024 12:53

If 1:1 TA/HLTA/LSA is detailed, specified and quantified in F, then it must be provided. And can be enforced including via judicial review if necessary. It is in addition to input from the teacher. Not instead of. Schools using the 1:1 to support others in the class leave themselves and the LA open to legal action.

Ultimately, LAs are responsible for ensuring SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F is provided, including ensuring there is sufficient funding. EHCPs can be fully funded, but LAs won’t do this unless forced.

Depending on the wording in F it can mean a set adult providing the 1:1.

Parents may have or appeal to ensure F is detailed, specified and quantified rather than vague and woolly.

Bunnycat101 · 24/07/2024 12:37

We’ve got at least one TA per class for now. I can’t imagine how teachers manage in infants without one. My children absolutely adore their TAs and they play such an important role. Our school is also basically skint though and can’t afford stationery so has been very reliant on parental donations of time (for jobs like painting etc as no budget for maintenance) and money to keep on paying for the TAs.

We have a lot of part-time or job share TAs so suspect a lot of them are doing for the love/a little bit of money rather than because they need a salary.

Longma · 24/07/2024 12:27

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Longma · 24/07/2024 12:22

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Willsean · 24/07/2024 11:49

Sirzy · 24/07/2024 11:41

If the EHCP specifies a certain amount of hours 1-1 then that’s what needs to be provided. They may briefly help a child sat next to them but overall they should be focused on that child and delivering what is stated in their plan. It is rare than a child has full time 1-1 allocated but if they do it’s because they need that!

The 'certain number of hours' or entitlement are still being provided in my example, as I'm talking about more focus on the child with SEND from the teacher. This is often better than a 'helper' sitting by their side to tick a box.

Many TAs are highly knowledgeable and might be qualified in various ways, but the child's teacher is accountable and the one who is most likely (hopefully) to have been trained in evidence based pedagogy, to a high level in their subject and also in additional needs.

I'm not talking about trying to get away without providing what is stipulated, but that rigid ideas about what support actually looks like don't always help actual access to the curriculum for the neediest.

seagullsky · 24/07/2024 11:43

We seem to have TAs in Reception and KS1 and then they become much rarer when you get into KS2. There are 31 kids in my daughter’s class and I don’t think there is a TA - I don’t know how the teacher does it, she deserves a medal!

Sirzy · 24/07/2024 11:41

Willsean · 24/07/2024 11:39

1 to 1 support doesn't mean a set adult being attached to a child. It might mean taking them for a sensory break. It might mean a creating conditions to be independent and being on hand to intervene where required. It might mean the child working with the subject expert and benefiting from their explanations and immediate feedback while others are supervised.

It's not illegal, but best practice for a trained teacher to direct a TA in their lesson as they see fit.

If the EHCP specifies a certain amount of hours 1-1 then that’s what needs to be provided. They may briefly help a child sat next to them but overall they should be focused on that child and delivering what is stated in their plan. It is rare than a child has full time 1-1 allocated but if they do it’s because they need that!

Willsean · 24/07/2024 11:39

Sirzy · 24/07/2024 11:11

That depends on wording. If an EHCP specifies 25 hours of 1-1 support from a teaching assistant then that 25 hours has to be provided.

a school is acting illegally if they don’t provide what is outlined in section F. Sadly section F is often so poorly written it doesn’t properly quantify anything with wording like “high levels of support”

1 to 1 support doesn't mean a set adult being attached to a child. It might mean taking them for a sensory break. It might mean a creating conditions to be independent and being on hand to intervene where required. It might mean the child working with the subject expert and benefiting from their explanations and immediate feedback while others are supervised.

It's not illegal, but best practice for a trained teacher to direct a TA in their lesson as they see fit.

TinyYellow · 24/07/2024 11:35

The teacher will manage but it will be stressful for them and they will have a lot of work to do alone. When my school had more TA’s the teachers were able to plan little trips out, would organise more enrichment visitors and would be less reliant on pre planned schemes of work. A lot of extras are gone now, as well as interventions for phonics/reading, maths or nurture groups for children who need help with communication or social skills. There is no TA to listen to children read and make sure they’re on the right level and that they regularly get new and appropriate books. Schools are more reliant than ever on parents doing reading and times tables practice at home because they can’t provide the extra support so when parents can’t or won’t do this, the achievement gap between children with and without engaged parents gets even wider.

SausageinaBun · 24/07/2024 11:28

I think the decrease in TAs in some schools is due to the move to the national funding formula. Years ago, schools were funded by local authorities to very different levels. Some schools were well funded and could afford TAs in every class. Other local authorities funded poorly and TAs in every class were not the norm in those areas. The national funding formula is meant to even out funding across the country. But realistically what it is doing is bringing all schools down to the level of the poorly funded ones.

SilverPuffin · 24/07/2024 11:28

We’ve had good numbers at ours in the last few years but budgets have been dramatically cut for next year so the number of ‘TA hours’ has been cut to an absolute bare minimum from September sadly.

CeciliaMars · 24/07/2024 11:24

From a teacher's point of view, cutting TAs is disastrous. With 32 in a class, it's impossible to help all children of all abilities. The amount of learners with SEND is increasing all the time, and TAs are a godsend either to help work with these children, or to help with the majority of the class whilst the teacher focuses on the children who have learning difficulties. TAs are also so helpful in to reduce the sheer volume of administrative tasks teachers have to do - cutting, sticking, laminating, displays, photocopying etc, and cutting TAs outs all of that back onto the shoulders of already very overworked teachers. The system is creaking at the knees.

LadyMonicaBaddingham · 24/07/2024 11:20

Sirzy · 24/07/2024 11:11

That depends on wording. If an EHCP specifies 25 hours of 1-1 support from a teaching assistant then that 25 hours has to be provided.

a school is acting illegally if they don’t provide what is outlined in section F. Sadly section F is often so poorly written it doesn’t properly quantify anything with wording like “high levels of support”

Our authority fudges it as 'ACCESS TO' 1-2-1 support...

So a single staff member will be the '1-2-1' for 2, 3 or even 4 children. Sometimes across more than one classroom...

It's all about the bottom line 🫰

MeinKraft · 24/07/2024 11:12

Don't worry, the SEN children's 1-1 will be used to support the entire classroom, ask me how I know!

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