Parents need to open thier eyes

Well, in the 1970s and 1980s they had to make dozens of public information films as parenting was so fucking woeful, so I wouldn't be so quick to berate modern parenting.

I must admit to not being as careful as we might have been with DDs a few years ago but it was all so new, and DD2 was 11 in 2020 in lockdown - games and phone was the only social activity that was available at times. I tried hard to understand what the apps were and watch what they were doing but it was not easy.

Parents can do a fair bit but the tech companies and schools need to be forced to take more responsibility also, things have proliferated so quickly in the last five years even and it is hard to keep up. DD2's former school were so into tech that they were all expected to access even their timetable on their phones while at school.

School needs to move away from apps and software, go back to paper homework diaries and actually mark books again so kids can at least keep their phones in the bags and just have basic phones that just do calls and messages.

The services we have are supposed to be there regardless of what the parent is doing, if a child is being exploited because the parents aren’t capable of protecting them, then there is a legal pathway for that.

Can you imagine the uproar if a child was removed from their parent because their parent wouldn’t remove their phone? God even the idea that a child shouldn’t take their phone to school is met with absolute outrage, despite the bullying and anti social behaviour generated by phones in school and the interruptions to learning.

By the time online grooming has become an issue as in this child’s situation the horse has bolted. The child needs a lot of work around safety and abuse, to understand their choice to send intimate pictures has had an awful, unintended consequence, to help them find the ability to set boundaries and to work within the boundaries set by adults in their life. To recover from the abuse they’ve experienced.

The parents need to be able to separate out what their child is accountable for (sending intimate pictures) from the consequent abuse that they are not responsible for. They then need to set tight boundaries to protect their child, if that means less social contact online they need to find an alternative way to facilitate (and supervise where needed) social contact. That means very involved parenting which strikes a balance between autonomy and protection.

Too many parents err on the side of “they’re a teenager and need to be independent” rather than recognising that for this teen in this circumstance closer supervision and support is needed.

It's very difficult to withhold technology from kids this age. My ds is expected to use his phone everyday in school and for homework. Kids predominantly socialise online or arrange things online. It's not right but it's the world we live in.

It’s really not that difficult. You limit what they can access, physically check their phone regularly, have penalties if they’re deleting messages so you can’t check, take phones off them after a certain time at night, don’t let them disappear into their rooms for hours on their home. Take the phone off them if they break the rules, explain to school it’s a disciplinary measure and ask for homework to be provided in an alternative format, they can’t socialise with friends - too bad, the old equivalent of being grounded.

If it’s a choice between having unfettered access, with all the risks that brings, or being inconvenienced at school and with friends I know what I’d choose.

The difficulty is parents start kids off on screens at a very young age, so by the time they’re 10/11 removing access generates so much angst and conflict parents give in.

Hear hear.
Maybe just me , but I think it's al this gentle parenting nonsense. Parents are what too scared to parent.

It constantly surprises me how little parents will educate themselves on how to control their children's online presence.

We're all gamers in this house so we've have Xboxes and Playstations since they were little. But their accounts were locked down so they can't speak to strangers, and they can't accept friend requests without parental approval. Also - can't buy anything without parental approval.

They've had phones since Y6, which also have a parental control app on them, for the same as the above with the added control that they can't access inappropriate websites. They have had WhatsApp for family chats - which seems to be a bone of contention on here with some people absolutely convinced it's a hotbed of molesters grooming kids under the age of 16. I've once in the years I have it had an unsolicited message - my kids have never - and the way I know that is that we have open dialogue as well as me making spot checks. I also wasn't shy about removing them from the absolutely feral Y6 group chats. The frankly ridiculous conversations I had with other parents where their kids were getting upset and anxious about these group chats but the parents wouldn't step in and do anything. These children were eleven for cryin out loud!

Sorry for the rant but it's something I feel really passionate about, children are literally being killed because they are being groomed online. As parents it is our responsibility to keep them safe, even if the children don't like it.

<steps down off soapbox>

It's very difficult to withhold technology from kids this age. My ds is expected to use his phone everyday in school and for homework. Kids predominantly socialise online or arrange things online. It's not right but it's the world we live in.
I agree parents need to be much more involved in their children's screen time but aside from frank and open discussions about the dangers and installing the appropriate parental controls what more can they do?
Social services and the police aren't at fault but the parent is clearly hurt by her child's bad choices and looking to lash out, it's pretty shitty to create a thread calling her out for being a bad parent at this time.

When I was growing up, a local 13 year old was given a couple of quid to babysit. Now parents won't let anyone near their child but then give them the latest smartphone with no safeguards and don't monitor access. Doesn't make sense given how violent offenders are getting younger and younger because of what they're accessing online.

So create more of a nanny state because its clear that morons can't parent?

Maybe the real solution is forced sterilisation?
Sort the problem at the root?

What do you want them to do?

What do you propose politicians do about parents who either can't or won't parent?

Modern parents are scared of upsetting their kids.

Take 1 look at MN.
Don't upset them, pacify them, they must have a reason for being a little shirt,
Then as they grow to adults the adult child is never wrong.

This is the parents fault. Bad people are never going away so this lies on their shoulders.

But what do you want politicians to do? It is parents who need to take control. The bigger the state, the less people seem to rely on their own sense and agency.

No one can care for your children as well as you do.

I am baffled by people who freak out about letting their children walk to the shop, yet happily give them unfettered access to a whole world of dangerous, damaging content.

^ Everything that @Foxblue just said.

Any politicians reading this? Any of you going to do something? I'm waiting.

Why not just buy them a Nokia 3410 type thing? Problem solved?

I work in Internet safety.
What really frustrates me, is when I see parents on here going:
'If I restrict certain apps, they will be socially isolated'
'I don't know what I'm doing and they just figure out how to override controls'
'I trust them, I don't need to check it, I think thats an invasion of their personal privacy'
'They will just see it on other kids phones anyway'
'If I restrict it, they will just go mad when they are old enough to'

You should be able to access whatever your child has accessed, restrict whatever you need to restrict, and if you can't do that, then they shouldn't have a phone. It's not just bullying or grooming, it's the risk of their algorithm bombarding them with perfect faces and bodies constantly that make them grow up with warped standards that can lead to eating disorders and warped body image (look how much we all manage to get screwed up by the media coverage of women in the 90s and early 2000s)
It's your algorithm feeding your child misinformation and false facts.
It's the algorithm showing them violence or animal cruelty.
It's them being exposed to incel culture and misogynistic content. Drip drip drip.
Phones are not the equivalent of what magazines or tv were, they are much bigger, smarter and all consuming. A person can ingest thousands of bits of content in a day compared to magazines and a couple hours of tv. These apps are literally designed to hit the endorphin centres of people's brains in whatever ways necessary.

Phones are a wonderful tool, great for learning and communication and children can really benefit from them. But if grown adults struggle to regulate themselves, develop self esteem issues or warped thinking or addiction behaviours from them, then how can we expect children, with their developing brains like sponges soaking everything up, to handle it. Even if your child manages to self regulate the amount of time they are on their phone, and only uses it for one app, you still need to be keeping a keen eye on it.
Frustrates me seeing parents go 'but if you restrict it they will just go mad when they are older' okay, but a 13 year old needs protecting now.
'They will grow up socially isolated if you don't allow certain things' okay, then you need to be 100% certain you can see everything they see to keep an eye on it.
'It's an invasion of privacy' it's not reading their diary, that's a private inner world, this is a connection to the outside world and you need to know what's going on.
'I was fine' okay, but what works for one child doesn't work for another. Some kids with ADHD really benefit from screen time, others benefit in the short term but in the long term it causes addiction problems, what then? It's complicated and messy.

Sorry, bit of a rant. Just frustrates me how some people don't understand the power these tools have. For good, yes, but the impact on developing brains is huge and people are honestly, under thinking about it.

IME one of the problems is that the kids understand the tech better than the parents and some parents seem unwilling to do much about that. My colleagues are always complaining that they just don't understand what smartphones can do, the things their kids can get access to, how to stop it etc. The idea of using the internet to find out is of course beyond them, it should be someone else's job to protect their kids. And so it goes on.

And these are primary school kids.

I'm MC and work in a profession - these aren't clueless people, they're just entitled and lazy.

Do you think removing kids/teens from parents because they are being exploited means they won't be exploited any longer?

Of course children's services are there to step in when parents can't. But in cases of exploitation it's literally impossible for social services to protect children once the damage is done and if the parents have lost control. We do take kids into care sometimes but I've never once seen it be a long term solution.

Yep. Parents don't want to parent now days, they want to be their children's friend.
Same with schools - schools are expected to teach toileting, how to use cutlery, basic manners etc.

I have watched the video (4 minutes).
So many questions and so much still going wrong here.

These are bigger issues obviously which can't be solved on a MN chat.

But bottom line, IMO children under 16 should not have smart phones or phones with cameras that connect to the internet.

Technology moves fast, and so although the cat is out of the bag, it's not too late to legislate and hold parents and mobile companies accountable.

I take the point that many parents nowadays seem to find it hard to say 'no'. They want to be the child's friend or 'mate'.

We need a national advertising campaign making it clear to parents that they can say 'no' to their child, and one for children too.

Yes this is tricky, and I don't like the idea of the nanny state, but in this case we do need to intervene. Turning a blind eye to this has to stop.

There are some feckless and irresponsible parents who need to be told, including many MC parents who often think this doesn't apply to them.

@EverybodyLTB The services we have are supposed to be there regardless of what the parent is doing, if a child is being exploited because the parents aren’t capable of protecting them, then there is a legal pathway for that. Social services, police, children’s care homes are not fit for purpose and the system is broken. The mum clearly is out of her depth and isn’t willing or able to do what needs to be done, that’s when our systems need to step in and take over.

For ‘the system’ to be involved it’s often too late for the child and has moved beyond online and into physical abuse. There will never be a world where the police or IT systems can stop children or young people from being groomed online, it’s just not logistically possible. The only place it is much more possible is in the home.

Any idiot can be a parent. My 9yo niece was having issues with bullying on tiktok , so my brother bought her a smartphone for Christmas.

I think it’s both. The services we have are supposed to be there regardless of what the parent is doing, if a child is being exploited because the parents aren’t capable of protecting them, then there is a legal pathway for that. Social services, police, children’s care homes are not fit for purpose and the system is broken. The mum clearly is out of her depth and isn’t willing or able to do what needs to be done, that’s when our systems need to step in and take over.

As a parent of an 11 year old who has no phone and is expected to do as they’re told, I don’t understand how parents are so weak and pathetic about phone/internet use and behaviour. You see it more and more, though. I have older teenagers and people often have this attitude of shrugging shoulders and being like ‘what can you do, they’re a law unto themselves’ yeah, my kids aren’t. I have rules and expectations of my kids, boundaries which of course they push against, but they are supported and rewarded for being so good. The amount of their friends who get caught doing something dreadful and are still allowed to game online, go out with cash and new clothes etc there’s never any consequences for anything. My friend was saying the other day that her child (same age as my eldest) always takes their phone to bed and point blank refuses not to, and she never wins this argument. This is while they’re in JD buying new trainers, on their way to get his favourite expensive food. If my kids refuse to follow my rules then we discuss, but still I’m not having it. If they’re disrespecting me then I’m not making financial sacrifices and efforts for them. People say things like ‘if you restrict them they’ll rebel more” I’ll wait! They know I’m protecting them because I tell them why we have the rules we have.

If I was the mother of that child on Sky news, that phone would have been in the bin at age 11 and I would have moved heaven and earth for any and very pathway to exploitation to be cut off. The child is now mired in a complete mess, that will probably affect them forever, through lack of action in the first instance.

Agree. The reality is in the early stages of grooming social services and the police have nothing to do with it.

I don’t know why some parents still don’t seem to understand you can’t and shouldn’t give your young child unfettered access to the internet. You probably wouldn’t let an 11 year old roam around city streets alone late at night so why allow them on the internet unmonitored where they can access all sorts of materials and engage with literally anybody!

It's a video rather than an article so I don't know what she's blaming social services for - any clue?