To not get DC a snack

Agreed. The four year old should go to bed earlier and you need to get tough here on the messing about. Boring day, loss of nice things etc following messing about.

Then you can focus on the 7 year old.

It is much more fun for them to play the bedtime game than it is to stay in bed so that is why they do it. Tell them once they go to bed food is not an option. They have already eaten so they won’t exactly starve. Leave water by their bed that they can help themselves to. If they go to the toilet don’t interact with them at all so that it is really boring. Get cross if they go more than twice. They won’t respect you if you are a total doormat and you are being a total doormat -sorry!

Not sure why a snack is necessary before bed. Why the constant need for food? Ours had supper at around 5:30/6pm, then bath, books and bed at 7pm (7:30 by age 8). Door left ajar with the parents downstairs.
They had a cup of water with them and could refill from the bathroom tap themselves if thirsty in the night.
I was not trudging up and down pandering to them, I was enjoying my evening.

The slot machine analogy helped me get round this kind of malarkey when my kids got to this age. Basically any time you even engage in chat
” no you can’t have a biscuit” never mind giving an actual slice of bread … you are putting money in the slot machine.

Having told them the ground rules - bed at 8 no further drinks snacks etc ….
I just used to guide them back to bed and say calmly “it’s bedtime”. Literally nothing more. Repeat as nauseam. It works. Way better than getting cross, shouting etc. It’s so boring they just give up.

They aren’t really thirsty, hungry etc obvs. The ingenuity of a kid that wants to push bedtime knows no bounds.

I also don't think anxiety is helped by wet lettuce parenting. 2hrs of fanning about isn't helping anyone understand what exactly is supposed to happen. Is it bedtime? Then why is mummy getting me a glass of water/snack/fifteen million other things?
Sit them down, set some ground rules for what they can do in their room (mine could read/draw quietly, if they needed a wee they were expected to sort themselves out) and let them get on with it.

That’s fine if it is 15 minutes and it works. The OP is up there 2 hours and it doesn’t!!

I know I sound like a mug, but I tried everything and eventually it was clear that 15mins of lying on the floor, holding my older DD’s hand was not just what she needed to go to sleep and not keep both of them up, but a net gain for me because it wasn’t the hours and hours of disruption all the way until 10-11pm. Much less stress.

They are acting like this because you allow it. Put them to bed, do not change their blankets, do not let them have numerous drinks and toilet trips. Do not speak to them unless you are saying no. During the day tell them there are no treats until they learn to behave at bedtime. A few days of this and they will stop messing around.

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric

Don't be silly. Feeding them slices of bread and giving them drinks after bedtime is crazy. You've kind of made a rod for your own back here though.

My youngest is 7 and he's had no drinks or food after bedtime since about age 3. Kitchen closed, sorry kid.

Just stop doing it and learn the word no. Tell them in advance there will be no drinks or snacks tonight and then stick to it and decline every single request.

If you're stuck upstairs for a while, take your phone or a book and ignore them. And stop with the 'shhh sleepy time' nonsense and start with the 'dd you get back into bed right now and be quiet. Enough!'. If she cries, she cries. At the moment she's running rings around you though and gentle parenting clearly isn't working.

I gave my 5year old a raw carrot once when she asked for a snack.
She ate it 😂

Oh one of my DDs was like that, still is. Has always been a FOMO hyperactive girl. Nightmare to put down for naps or night time from when she was a baby.

My next younger one is exact opposite. At 10 months she started just putting toys down, crawling up the stairs and I’d follow her and she will have picked up her baby doll, crawled onto her futon, pulled her blanked up and started a nap all on her own!

Fast forward to the same ages as yours and my younger one happily went to bed but as they share a room, I would get complaints that the older one is keeping her awake. The older one was constantly thrashing, thirsty, heard a scary bump- is it a monster? Sometimes she told my younger one she’s seen a huge spider and my younger one is terrified of spiders and that got her screaming for me.

I am sorry but I have found that once I have done story time at 8:30, I had to lie on the floor until they both fall asleep. Often I held my elder daughter’s hand
I think she was for some reason afraid to go to sleep on her own. She’s always was this way from a baby.

She out grew it gradually by age 11.

Clearly your current routine is not working. That’s far too late a bedtime for a 4 year old. Go back to basics - tea 5, snack 6.30, teeth & pj’s 7, read a story in bed with 4 year old. Older one can sit on the landing/your bed with book/ipad til you’ve read story (they will have to learn to do this). Then story/chat with older one then bed for them at 8. Younger one will be asleep by then once routine is established. You really do just need to decide your timings then stick by them. No faffing with drinks/toilet/changing sheets and pj’s, no lying with them or near them. You are literally just making them worse.

The thing that stands out is very little transition into bed time , particularly important for ND children
Dinner 6-6.30
Remind that no further snacks will be given
Quiet play or a gentle programme, ours like wildlife stuff no animals eating each other though
7pm upstairs for bath
They choose their books and place them on the bed, any mucking about means no story
7- 7.30 bath
7.30 dry, teeth, remind no snacks just water
Into bed, stories
8pm lights out,
If they get up firm reminder it's bed time
1-2-3 Magic is good gives them a chance to turn it around

If they are silly then next day unfortunately we won't be going to the park, party, etc as you will be " too tired" as you were silly at bed time.

I have this problem too OP - and a husband that's soft as marshmallow who gets quite angry at me and says 'you eat when you're hungry let them'.

And your answer to this is, 'OK, you let them. You get them something, if you think they are hungry, and you settle them again.'
Let him show everyone what a better parent he is.
It's bad enough when the kids are playing you, stop him from second guessing you as soon as you can. A couple of weeks of him up and down should get him on side.

Not much help in saying that is there?

Give some PRACTICAL advice - that is what she is here for, not insults

But if you’re giving dinner and hour before bed and they ask for food once they’re in bed you just say no!
It sounds like you just let them dictate everything.
You’re giving in to every demand so of course they keep pushing and pushing. You’ve taught them that bedtime “sleepy time” doesn’t mean go to your bed and stay there, it means a big 2 hour dance about it you doing whatever they ask.

I also tried to teach her counting games for sleep - 1. sheep classic 2 times tables and 3 count x head to one side, same head straight and same head to otherside but besides keeping her in bed didn't really work. We had some success with story CDs

Kitchen is closed.
No more water or you'll pee all night.
Use your other blanket.
Stop messing about or mummy's going to get very angry.
Don't be scared, mummy is just outside. Go to bed.

put tea time back where it belongs. Introduce a supper that they choose and be clear - no more food at all beyond that, and only water to drink in small amounts to stop the weeing. Dark or black out curtains, quiet calm rooms - remove all distractions/toys from sight, keep temperature cool and return them to bed all the time. I would do story time, chat, last loo visit and teeth then into bed and I would monitor get ups and if it is more than 2 then the next day there is a consequence and you are clear with them what that is and why and repeat it consistently. Then reduce to 1 get up then reward for no get ups.

It won't be easy I battled for years with mine - she just didn't need much sleep and still to this day doesn't - what 19 yr old do you know chooses to get up around 7 even after working weekend etc. Mind you she is on her way home and she is in for a shock with 2 new pups and 5am starts at the moment lol

They are playing you like a fiddle.
Do your bedtimes routine.
Then, 1 small drink, 1 toilet trip and then that’s it.
They cannot possibly actually need any of the things they are requesting. They’ve been fed and watered and toileted.
They are bored. They need to be bored for long enough to just ho to sleep.
Return them to bed without commenting for as long as it takes. No more messing.

I would get rid of the audio book for a start, have tea around 3/4pm then a snack before bedtime, read them a story in bed and then that's it. Each time they get up just tell them to go back to bed as they will look for excuse after excuse to get up again.

They're old enough to be shouted at now. No more nice mummy.

Don't let this go on, you'll end up with nightmare bratty entitled kids that hate you - you won't be able to change this after a few more years when they're teens.

Kids respect authority. They might moan in the short term, but they'll appreciate the firm hand and clear boundaries in the long run. They'll respect you more too. Embrace being the boss!

It's unfair they're both loosing sleep because one is misbehaving... they grow up and blame it all on you too...

Try physical books again, one per kid, as the final thing they do in bed before lights out.
If they muck about it's straight to light's out.
Try a red light string in room.

If the kids are fed, watered and have been to the toilet it is reasonable that they are expected to lie quietly or sleep.
Accept no noise and teach them how to get up quietly to go to the toilet without disturbing the others and how to sip from their own (small) water container if thirsty.
Accept only one extra toilet visit per child before sleep.

If hunger is an issue remind them that they need to eat more for breakfast in the morning. And remind them to eat all their dinner tomorrow night.

Your kids are misbehaving, Op..

@Namechanges85437854

Are your children Autistic? I’m a bit confused as you mentioned it but I can’t see another reference to it.

If so what strategies are you using in terms of visual aids and preparation etc?

Make tea earlier, give them a snack 30 mins before bed. Water in a bottle next to the bed. Wee right before bed. Then any time they get up, return them to bed. You know they're not hungry (they've just eaten), they have a drink with them and they've just been to the toilet. Do not engage, just silently return them every time.