Page 3 | To not get DC a snack

Original poster

Namechanges85437854 · 23/07/2024 14:15

Laundryliar · 23/07/2024 08:10

Tbh op a 4/5 year old is too young to be doing a club that only finishes at 7. They should really be heading to bed at that time especially with school the next day. Id stop the clubs or try and get an earlier slot - surely with a 7pm finish time by the time you get home and to bed they must be shattered?

Im also confused about your routine - if they are at clubs til 7pm 2 nights a week when is dinner eaten those nights? Earlier? Surely a 4yr old isnt waiting til gone 7 to eat? It just sounds like a lot of the routine in your home us simply too late for kids this age who should be lights out by 7/7.30 - in your home dinner, bedtime etc are all very late and when kids are overtired they can seem very energetic and behaviour deteriorates.
One of mine sometimes went to bed as early as 6.30 at 4/5 yrs old.

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The time of tea isn't set, I just gave the time we happened to have eaten that day, to show how long they had gone without food. Usually it's between 6-7, but on nights with clubs, they have early tea before they go. The time of tea varies often enough that the done see it as set, so are fine with that moving.

The club the 4yo dose is rainbows, which I'm reluctant to stop as she enjoys and seems to get a lot out of it. Every kid there is 4-7, I assumed that was normal, it seems to be for after school clubs around here. Does no one else's kids do activities?

The 7yo has trampolining 5-7 and youth group 4.30-6.30, this kind of time window seems to be standard and we'd struggle to get anywhere earlier as they don't get in from school until 4.

OP posts:

Original poster

Namechanges85437854 · 23/07/2024 13:58

MeinKraft · 23/07/2024 08:19

God you have the patience of a saint OP both with your kids and some of the posters on this thread. Have you thought about melatonin I've heard it's very useful for some ND kids? Or a weighted blanket for your oldest?

Waited blanket we have done in the past, it didn't make going to sleep any faster but at the time was the solution to night waking.

Melatonin I go backwards and forwards on, because they do eventually go to sleep, and stay asleep for a reasonable amount of time once they're gone, I think I'd feel guilty that they'd be dealing with side affects, mostly for my convenience. If it ever got to the point where they weren't getting enough sleep and it was effecting them, then that would be different.

Every now and then I feel desperate enough that I think I should talk to the pediatrician about it, but then we have some better nights, that make me want to hold off.

OP posts:

AndBabyMakes3 · 23/07/2024 11:32

@Namechanges85437854 Our kids liked to pull the same stunt at bed time, I'm hungry/thirsty/need toilet/etc... only thing that stopped it was to physically set a timer in front of them for 20 minutes and then check in with them if they were still hungry. Majority of time they'd be fast asleep within the 20 mins, but they felt that their needs were being addressed by watching me set the timer. On the rare occasions they were actually hungry, they could have a small banana in bed while we waited/stood over them to make sure they weren't messing around/take away the banana skin when done. They were allowed water after brushing teeth, having small non-spillable bottles in their room within easy reach from bed (no getting up to cross the room to get it) but unless they needed the toilet they were not allowed get out of bed. They sometimes still try to mess around / play / keep themselves awake but ignoring them / not giving a reaction helps them fall asleep quicker. Another thing we tried was explaining that their brains fill up with brain-poo (their words!) while they are awake and they need to sleep to allow their brains to rest/get rid of the brain-poo so they can do x,y&z tomorrow - if yours are old enough to comprehend that in your own words it might help too, ours just really needed everything explained logically to them and once they understood why that made life so much easier for us all.

jannier · 23/07/2024 08:53

Are you on the attention autism FB page? It was set up by Gina Davies who started Bucket Time. Lots of useful tips and advice.
I'd say part of the problem especially for your 4 year old is being overtired which like us means we just can't turn off. I'd start her bedtime earlier then once you've done her story, start your sons.
The club being so late for the 7 year old isn't going to help let alone the late eating can't they eat earlier then have a light snack?

Teacherprebaby · 23/07/2024 08:31

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 07:02

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

The word you are looking for, is 'no'. They are 4 and 7!!!!

MultiplaLight · 23/07/2024 08:28

Half an hour reading books is too long in bed. 3 books max and then it's sleep time.

I understand your fixation on routine with your autistic child, but if you're at clubs til 7 twice a week, no routine will work unless it's short and snappy.

llamajohn · 23/07/2024 08:20

A 4 yo in a club that ends at 7???

Jeeez, I thought gymnastics ending at 5pm was pushing it for my 4.5 yo (and we're home by 5:10)

MeinKraft · 23/07/2024 08:19

God you have the patience of a saint OP both with your kids and some of the posters on this thread. Have you thought about melatonin I've heard it's very useful for some ND kids? Or a weighted blanket for your oldest?

Laundryliar · 23/07/2024 08:12

Dolly567 · 22/07/2024 21:33

I would start bedtime earlier!

This - OP you need to be heading upstairs at like 6pm with kids this age

Laundryliar · 23/07/2024 08:10

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 22:30

We purposely took the bath out of the bedtime routine years ago, as my kids can't cope with a routine you follow 90% of the time. Once things become part of the routine, they get really unsettled if you skip it. So it really wouldn't work if we were ever late getting in and didn't have time or they fell asleep in the car and we carried them in to bed (more a thing when younger).

They have clubs that finish at 7pm a couple of times a week, and I would want to start baths at that time, so we do morning showers instead.

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Tbh op a 4/5 year old is too young to be doing a club that only finishes at 7. They should really be heading to bed at that time especially with school the next day. Id stop the clubs or try and get an earlier slot - surely with a 7pm finish time by the time you get home and to bed they must be shattered?

Im also confused about your routine - if they are at clubs til 7pm 2 nights a week when is dinner eaten those nights? Earlier? Surely a 4yr old isnt waiting til gone 7 to eat? It just sounds like a lot of the routine in your home us simply too late for kids this age who should be lights out by 7/7.30 - in your home dinner, bedtime etc are all very late and when kids are overtired they can seem very energetic and behaviour deteriorates.
One of mine sometimes went to bed as early as 6.30 at 4/5 yrs old.

OnAndOnAndonAgain · 23/07/2024 00:57

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 17:10

My question is, is it unreasonable to not give them a snack, when I know they are fed and just using it as a delay tactic. Their autism doesn't effect that question (yes some will have hunger related sensory issues or not understand the caurse and effect of eat now or you will be hungry later. That is not the case here)

I'm not asking if I should be staying with them, and have explained several times why I don't intend to stop. I'm also perfectly capable of ignoring any advice that doesn't work with there needs. I find it useful to listen to a wide range of experience, including from parents of NT children and find that when I start threads with the fact they're autistic, no one can get past either a stereotype view of autism or the idea that my autistic children must be just like theirs, when as we all know, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person.

When they actually lie down and try to sleep, they are asleep within 20 minutes, so if I could stop the extra get ups, that would get bedtime down to an hour, which would be better for all of us. Including my overtired 4yo and my 7yo who is gets upset about being kept awake when he wants to sleep.

It's definitely not unreasonable to not give them a snack when they've eaten their dinner that late . They aren't hungry

jannier · 22/07/2024 22:44

Stop playing their game sit them down in the morning and say it's not happening anymore.

Original poster

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 22:35

^ wouldn't want to start baths at that time

OP posts:

Original poster

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 22:30

Freespeechisvital · 22/07/2024 21:45

Sounds much better Op
Would a bath help your DD wind down?

Bath teeth 15 mins
Reading 15 mins

Same for your DS and bedtime is 1 hour
I think half an hour for reading is too long if she messes about

We purposely took the bath out of the bedtime routine years ago, as my kids can't cope with a routine you follow 90% of the time. Once things become part of the routine, they get really unsettled if you skip it. So it really wouldn't work if we were ever late getting in and didn't have time or they fell asleep in the car and we carried them in to bed (more a thing when younger).

They have clubs that finish at 7pm a couple of times a week, and I would want to start baths at that time, so we do morning showers instead.

OP posts:

Freespeechisvital · 22/07/2024 21:45

Sounds much better Op
Would a bath help your DD wind down?

Bath teeth 15 mins
Reading 15 mins

Same for your DS and bedtime is 1 hour
I think half an hour for reading is too long if she messes about

pandarific · 22/07/2024 21:38

That’s a positive step OP! Well done.

Question about the 4 year old… does she have any little small world toys to play with in her bed as she goes to sleep? She sounds quite high energy and like it takes her a while to wind down and get to sleep. that winding down time might not be something you can really control, so if she currently doesn’t have any, perhaps she could pick something quiet to play with in bed? My rule for DS has always been ‘head on the pillow’ - eg he can play with his dinos, little robots etc as he gets sleepy, but the head needs to be on the pillow.

Dolly567 · 22/07/2024 21:33

I would start bedtime earlier!

Original poster

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 21:33

Well they're both asleep, which is good, but we started at 7 so it still took two hours. DS did very well at staying in his room an watching his table (yes, I know screens before bed but needs must). We went up at around 7, probably 7.15 by the time we'd done wees and DD had picked a book.

Read to her for about half an hour then lay with her for a bit. By 8 DS was struggling with been alone but DD was still awake, so I left her with instructions she must stay in bed, while I went to do his book. Unfortunately I only got 10-15 minutes with DS, which I feel kind of bad about after he did so well waiting but DD was just passing about more and getting less settled. I then lay on an airbed on the landing outside both bedroom doors, and they eventually both went to sleep.

OP posts:

MultiplaLight · 22/07/2024 21:08

Explain it clearly in the day time what you expect at bed time.

Then come bed time, it's a quick 'bed now' every time and that's it.

I really think you're not framing bed time as a non negotiable in your mind. Your. Kids clearly see it as a negotiation time, and spend 2 hours negotiating with you.

Freespeechisvital · 22/07/2024 21:00

Ok that's exactly what I also meant but I also have what I call non negotiables such as the safety/ expected things I mentioned above that don't need explaining every time.
I'm afraid I couldn't allow that type of chaos surrounding bedtime and it would be one of those
It's bed time end of

Original poster

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 20:53

Freespeechisvital · 22/07/2024 19:53

I think you are massively overthinking this

they can't see the logical link, they just see it as random meaness and then feel too betrayed/ angry to be able to process

What???

You are the parent, responsible for their care and safety and they need to know that you will do this.
There is nothing more frightening for children than permissive parenting
I think the bargaining with reward / praise problem is you end up with children who need bribing to do everyday normal stuff.
It makes you appear weak rather than in control and if they don't want to comply they wont.
They don't actually learn why they need to do these things

Some things are absolutely non negotiable, car seat,brushing teeth, not running near the road and so at nearly 5 and 7 there should be no discussion at all.
They know the expectation by now surely?

Keep the steps simple, repetitive and low key in a this is what we do way.

I probably didn't explain it well.

Mine do better when they understand why I'm telling them to do something, so 'you can't do x because of y' works much better for us then 'you can't do x because I say so'. They also struggle with emotional regulation, and when the emotional load goes up, the thinking and communication ability goes down, as they just don't have the bandwidth for both at once.

That mean they are most likely to do/not do something, and remember to do/not do it next time, if I explain clearly, while they're in a relatively calm state. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences, there are, but they need to be logical and communicated calmly.

OP posts:

RedHelenB · 22/07/2024 19:54

Never ever gave mine food after they'd gone to bed. And they had a sports bottle filled with water by the bed. And they could take themselves to the toilet. So I think you need to nip this in the bud.

Freespeechisvital · 22/07/2024 19:53

I think you are massively overthinking this

they can't see the logical link, they just see it as random meaness and then feel too betrayed/ angry to be able to process

What???

You are the parent, responsible for their care and safety and they need to know that you will do this.
There is nothing more frightening for children than permissive parenting
I think the bargaining with reward / praise problem is you end up with children who need bribing to do everyday normal stuff.
It makes you appear weak rather than in control and if they don't want to comply they wont.
They don't actually learn why they need to do these things

Some things are absolutely non negotiable, car seat,brushing teeth, not running near the road and so at nearly 5 and 7 there should be no discussion at all.
They know the expectation by now surely?

Keep the steps simple, repetitive and low key in a this is what we do way.

theworldsmad · 22/07/2024 19:43

Namechanges85437854 · 22/07/2024 17:50

I've thought about that, but what if get up number 3 (or whatever is passed the allowed amount) is the toilet. I wouldn't put it past the 4yo to intentionally pee the bed if I don't let her go (she has form), and changing all the bedding is an even longer delay.

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Can't you just take her to the loo right before she has to sleep? Story and just before lights out, she quickly runs to the bathroom.

pandarific · 22/07/2024 19:16

I think @SeaToSki has a great solution - definitely break the cycle the 4yo is in first by dividing and conquering. They really need to be back in their own rooms.

I don’t know how finances are right now but we’re an ND household and thus has been great for DS who sounds a lot like the 4yo,
www.amazon.co.uk/Immver-Projector-Compatible-Assistant-Dimmable/dp/B09XCDW1WC/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?adgrpid=116553471254&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.12isZk3yUHOFmcJekj5XVlGabOPTs6IXRqhKabaWGJD6s5GZpNFT3CR5Hst9op1RXmpulXCESeFp-QHHE4a2ZlLFfpt9-s8Z5oM3wFe4usbDDitCbbhhta0Cfb7JXB41NHktH6Bnb-Q545y-al-c50qocu4PpFP05sLJPekT-oxq1J0LhQbZTMpnkks_00Yfi0dKN1R0ZICuLoIfr8EEPQ.2MCIze7W170hIINo5cqZF4tzpFEjZUs_3g0id5GI1os&dib_tag=se&hvadid=498422619257&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=1007850&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12191317969332661802&hvtargid=kwd-303840010974&hydadcr=16911_1798551&keywords=galaxy+light&qid=1721672069&sr=8-7