To think this is scandalous yet in plain sight because the patriarchy has no shame

Very helpful 👍

Tell that to the millions of people on antidepressants. It’s called modern life. It’s very stressful for many people. Obviously you’re one in a million if you never feel stressed.

Well there's something not right if basic stuff causes so much stress

Ok. Good for you.

I am a single parent. I've never found that stuff stressful either. It's just basic life

@ThisOldThang are you getting it now? Do you get how totally and utterly different the experience of a single parent is, usually on a limited income to your own? Do you get how what might seem easy to you in your circumstances is a straw that broke the camel's back for a single parent? If your oldest is 5 you haven't yet started dealing with the school dynamic, friendship issues, etc. Hopefully if you do, you can understand why we might feel that 15% income of a largely absent other parent is pretty pathetic and even IF the numbers seem ok, it in no way compensates for all of the stuff that comes with single parenting.

My ex once charmingly lashed out at me that "you don't get paid to parent your own kid", which is true. But I'd quite like to be paid for the parenting of HIS kid, for the 49 % extra I do that he should be doing. I worked it out once using the childminder rate at the time..he ought to be paying me well over 1k a month at childminder rates for HIS HALF of the time. Not my half, but the time he should be there but isn't.

I see you and hear you. I remember being in a whirlwind of house repossession, ex threatening me he has MH issues, work being taken over, health issues not related to stress, and breaking down at creche drop off because I forgot it was wear a certain colour day.

I remember talking to a therapist and she said it's like your brain knows you have to release your emotions and it chooses a safe place to crack.

Needless to say all I did was self admonish for not keeping myself together. But I am trying to do what she suggested, how would you talk to your friend going through it.

The mental load to me is the feeling you are the first and last defence for your children in every aspect of their existence accompanied by the same for all of your own life. It's exhausting.

@Anonym00se yes exactly. Throw in world book day (about which your kids change their mind four times) and the shop you need to get to for X is only open during the working day and the sorting office to pick up the missed delivery from Amazon likewise, a school assembly that your kid really wants you to come too, the day your childminder rings in sick and its you AGAIN that has to take time off as there is no 2nd parent to take a turn. and so on....

@ThisOldThang

Mental load is a weird one. You’d expect it would be the big things that are the most difficult to deal with, but more often it’s the little things that
get you. The year after my split was hell. I couldn’t pay the mortgage, and had threats of eviction from the bank. I was going through a nightmare custody case after my abusive ex had abducted our kids. My Mum was seriously ill and one of my children had just been diagnosed with autism. I handled all of that. But was the times that we get to school and I’d forgotten to put the lunches in their bags, meaning I’d have to go back and grab them and be late for work, or a burnt dinner or missed appointment that would have me sobbing on the kitchen floor.

You constantly feel like you’re on a really crappy raft on a choppy sea. At any time, the slightest upset can flip it upside down. That’s ‘mental load’.

You don't find it stressful because the mother is helping you.
You are neither a single parent nor an underappreciated woman, and evidently lack imagination, which is why you are not grasping it.

@BibbleandSqwauk

If you read my last post, you'll see that i was referring to the so-called mental load of remembering to buy food/clothes/shoes/nappies or wash the bedsheets - which were provided as examples of the 'mental load' that men just don't have a clue about.

I'm certainly not belittling the genuinely stressful burdens that parents have to manage.

Assuming that all single parents get benefits is a persistent and pernicious mistake. I earn high 30sK. Other than CB I don't get any help from the state. I didn't require childcare, or I would have got help there but it doesn't cover all. In order to earn that salary I obviously work full time which makes juggling everything very difficult and stressful most of the time. @ThisOldThang assertion that the mental load is made up bollocks only goes to show that he doesn't understand either what it is, or how it changes when kids reach school age and the amount of micro management involved there. As they get older mine have had various mental health issues which are utterly draining. I've dealt EBSA and self harm, been formally warned by my employer for missing too much time while trying to handle this and had nothing but carping from ex about how I'm doing it all wrong. His life and mine are worlds apart due to his decision to do and pay the minimum possible.

What exactly are you confused by, @XChrome?

Ummm...what?

You haven't said how recently you needed wraparound care, but given that salary and having three kids you'd now qualify for absolutely shitloads of UC and free childcare hours. Would you care to share your actual 'take home' money? If this happened recently, I suspect it would actually be the equivalent of earning £60k+ when you factor in housing benefit, etc

I qualified for a shitliaf ofvtax credit back innthe day. But the point was, for many of us, our children need care prior to us being able to work. Your figures were, at best, disingenuous.

Oh, and I own my own home, outright. I don't qualify for housing benefit. Never have.

@ThisOldThang sounds malicious - and, is realistically - I've reported him to DWP, DVLA, HMRC and the police for his criminal activity, but no 'positive' outcome as yet.
I don't understand why he hasn't been 'caught out', even with documented evidence, but he always seems able to charm his way out of things.
What's sad is that, despite everything, I care about him as an human being and as the Father of 6 amazing children, but he places others at rusk by a lot of his behaviours/activities, including all the children at various points over the years.
I don't even care about the lack of maintenance per se, as I give my DC as good a life as I can within my means; I think it's just the blatant flouting of any and all laws that don't suit his designs and the toll it takes on those around/related to him.

I don’t think anyone can deny there are plenty of men who parent equally and who, upon separation, continue to be an equal parent in every sense of the word. I have a relative who is an excellent father and he has his children equally and pays some maintenance as he was always the higher earner. It is a very amicable relationship. The parents don’t particularly like each other but they tolerate each other and even have Christmas lunches and go out for the occasional dinner.

Unfortunately, statistically, men - as a group - are more likely to parent less than 50:50 and to pay less. It isn’t sexist to point out that many men don’t want to be equal and choose not to be, or even pretend they are parenting when they’re just not. It doesn’t take away from those excellent fathers but it’s a minority of men who are equals. Men are more than capable of parenting equally if they choose.

It is always going to be financially challenging to run 2 homes on 2 incomes if you’re used to running 1 home on 2 incomes. Quality of life will change for the parents and it will be harder. I do think parents should minimise the changes to their children as much as is possible though. Appreciate some changes will have to be made but parents who expect their lifestyle to remain the same are misguided.

Well there's always abstaining for women as well.

You have no experience of parenting any child older than a toddler, so you can’t say whether it’s easy or not to parent any child older than a toddler. But you seem strangely adamant that you are correct.

I said it was easier to look after a 2+ year old than a child younger than 2. I've received nothing but insults for that assertion, but it is, as they say, my truth... (My eldest if 5 by the way, so he's not a toddler, and he's even easier than the 2 year old - e.g. he can wipe his own arse and request what he wants/needs. I expect things will get harder when they hit puberty).

Regarding your other points, re mental load and stuff you do around the house - you are spectacularly missing the point that you currently SHARE that load with your wife.

Yes and she's sharing it with me. My flippancy was aimed at some of the 'impossible for a man to do' examples listed in this thread rather than the reality of being a sole earner, in an insecure job, with no savings to provide a buffer between housing and homelessness. I certainly wouldn't wish to dismiss that type of mental load. It can't be much fun. I'm just not convinced that managing a child's diary, remembering to buy food/clothes/shoes and change the sheets really qualifies as a major thing.

_ Edit _

Full-time childcare is £12,000 - £24,000 a year depending on where in the country you live, yet you’re incredulous at the £9K figure for raising a child.

I'm not 'incredulous' at the £9k £11,400 figure. I've simply said that it is distorted by the costs of childcare, private school fees, etc. For those RPs that no longer need fulltime childcare, the per child cost can be brought down to a far lower figure - which has been confirmed by women on this thread and is my experience because we don't need to pay for childcare!

Childcare vouchers are £1k p/m for the first child, which would completely cover £12k. I've also stated again and again and again that the NRP should pay 50% of childcare costs. That would be £500 per month for childcare costing £24k once the childcare vouchers are factored in. Whether that's affordable for some dads is debateable and perhaps there does need to be a system of government backed/managed loans to ensure the RP receives the money and then the NRP has it clawed back over a longer period.

It’s already been invented but men didn’t want to take it as it gave them spots in the trials. Which is obvs worse than the increased risk of cancers and blood clots that women face from it 🙄

@ThisOldThang

Sorry I forgot to address your “hypothetical childcare” comment. You’ve repeatedly said that the figures for raising children are “skewed” by childcare costs, and that your costs are lower because your wife works part time so you don’t have any childcare costs.

You are posting on a thread about single mothers raising children without maintenance payments. So most won’t have the luxury of a SAH partner they can leave the kids with. We have to work, and therefore we have to pay childcare costs. Or maybe we should leave them wandering round unsupervised downstairs once they’re 2, while we go out to work, eh? Our costs are NOT hypothetical. It doesn’t matter a shiny shite what your situation because that’s not our situation. Full-time childcare is £12,000 - £24,000 a year depending on where in the country you live, yet you’re incredulous at the £9K figure for raising a child.

Roll on the male pill, of course they'll never invent it because it'll end with all out war between men and women.

I have read it and am not new to the thread. We've actually spoken on this thread before.
Nobody said it was all about you specifically, so no need to respond to each point as if it was aimed at you. There has been more than one dad on here. Frankly, it's getting so I can't tell the dads on here apart, but I'm not going to accuse you of saying something you didn't say.

Ah yes! No woman has ever thought of just grassing them up before! What a revelation!

@Crazycatlady79 Can you grass him up for tax evasion? It would appear to be an open and shut case of 'unexplained wealth'.