Private school fees - act now for SEND!

Look I’ll post a link to the documentary with the Angela Rayner interview. She has a SEN child herself, I don’t believe she wouldn’t increase the funding unless she absolutely couldn’t. Parents need to act on this basis rather than assuming enough lobbying will reform the system.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001xgql

You are free to write to your mp about anything that concerns you.

When you say copes better @redwinechocolateandsnacks - that's the problem with getting SEN provision right isn't it - you can quickly make children non functioning, disengaged from life, traumatised and mentally ill when provision isn't working.

And yes in isolation 1000bn looks like a big number, in reality every penny is currently accounted for because running a country is really expensive and we spent on more than just NHS/schools/social care.

The fact councils are bankrupting themselves to fund SEN shows they are prioritising disabled children, doesn’t it? It’s services like bin collection which are being scaled down to afford the social care bills.

The elephant in the room is the increase in children needing support. This could be down to the lack of early years provision (thanks Tories) and a growing population generally, but the rise has been so dramatic and so recent (basically in the last 5 years) that most professionals agree there’s something else going on (but that ‘something else’ is anyone’s guess).

We don’t have the money to keep increasing and increasing the SEN budget, not without depriving other much needed services of funding.

There is no answer sadly. Angela Rayner (who herself has a SEN child) has said as much - there’s nothing to done, bar try to use the money already allocated as wisely as possible.

Lobbying your MP etc will not make a difference. In my view charging VAT for any child with special needs is a huge own goal.

Perhaps it shows how many people are fortunate enough to have NT, confident, bright kids who thrive in a leafy MC comp and can't see why anyone would need to access private. A lot of the kids we are talking about here, mine included, would not qualify for EHCP because their needs are not acute, but they could not cope in the 1200 pupil comprehensive that was not well managed, in a challenging catchment (all other schools full before you ask why I didn't just move them).

If you could cut every state comp in half, but maintain staffing levels (ie double the number of teachers), have a much more robust discipline system so bullies that physically and verbally abuse vulnerable kids can be quickly dealt with and / or removed, allow a more flexible and bespoke curriculum with a permanently staffed and well resourced learning centre for students to go to in lieu of whichever timetabled class is not the right fit for them, eg languages, provide safe, indoor, staffed spaces at break and lunch so vulnerable kids feel safe and seen, provide 100+ extra curricular clubs, activities and trips then you'd be approaching the provision the private school gives my kids. Its not a rich school, its far far from Eton. Quite shabby in some ways, but the fees cover all of the above. And I drive myself into debt to pay for it. But yes lets abolish it and throw kids like mine back into the bear pit. Fix the bloody bear pit first then by all means - I'd love not to be remortgaging my house every few years to stay afloat but until the state system is fixed, the private one is needed and yes its awful that lots of kids like mine are suffering still but THIS POLICY WILL NOT SOLVE THAT.

I agree with @BellesAndGraces I did exchange several emails with our local labour candidate who is now elected and it's even more important now to contact your MPs and MSPs, wherever your dc are at school:

Outside of the VAT policy there are council level funding issues that are huge and will very likely affect dc in special schools or MS state. Activism hugely needed from every parent for their kids.

This truants register has the potential to penalise anyone with a dc with EBSA for example.

State schools cannot meet the needs of all DC p with SEN.

Fill time 121s are rare

No, they are not. This is what LAs and some schools would like parents to believe, though.

They are not shared round classes
If a child has so much need a full time TA is stipulated for support in their EHCP very few teachers will use their TA elsewhere

Unfortunately, sometimes they are. Which is why parents have to look at enforcement action.

So the children who really need the independent specialist provision and have an EHCP (likely funded by the LA) will be exempt. However the child who copes better in a small class size, more flexible but not specislist curriculum and does not have an EHCP will not be exempt and VAT is going to increase fees for this provision.

Oh it's very clear that only private school places paid for by locals authorities will be exempt from VAT - just as state boarding fees will be exempt. Labour are simply trying to exempt VAT for fees they are the payer for.

In general, wherever your dc are at school, everyone needs to keep a close eye on what labour is doing on SEN and at your local level as it affects your dc is the most effective thing to do surely...

No.

I'm in favour of this policy as I'm opposed to private schools. I want to see it brought in and it was one of the reasons I voted Labour. I'm staggered at the amount of posts this topic has generated but it just goes to show how out of touch mumsnet is I suppose.

A proportionately tiny amount of people can afford lawyers to help secure the EHCP. What difference does it make if those with means use their money to pay fees, thus removing the burden of them from the state classroom, or to pay for a lawyer that achieves an EHCP and keeps them in state, adding to the overcrowded system? It's no fairer and gives a worse outcome overall. "Just" applying for an EHCP is an oxymoron. This thread is all over the place...are we arguing about practicalities or principles? If practicalities, then this policy is pointless and only does harm. If principles then there's some equally muddled thinking.

No.

I won't write to my MP to object to a policy that supports tax breaks for the tiny amount of privileged few at the expense of the many.

Surely you can use your money more wisely and secure legal representation to secure an EHCP if one is warranted.

Nonsensical.

Why not just apply for an EHCP? If your child's needs can't be met in a mainstream state school and the LA agree the current school is suitable, then the fees would be paid.

@@EasternStandard
Labour have said during the election campaign that fees for pupils with ehcps will be exempt from VAT. They have not explained the mechanism. Initially it was assumed they meant that independent special schools who only take ehcp students would somehow be exempt from the VAT change. There are different categories of school, so for instance a section 41 school could expempted quite easily. However, not all children with ehcps in the private sector attend section 41 schools. It could be that LAs pay the VAT and then reclaim it. Noone knows.

I was wondering too. Is the op’s expectation that fees will be lower for this group of students?

Has anyone communicated this?

I have a son with an EHCP so understand fighting for support. He attended state schools. From what I can see from this thread we are talking about children who can just about cope in state provision with larger class sizes but parents who can afford school fees are opting out for smaller class, lots of PE and so on. No problem with that but I don't have the energy to champion this cause too.

80% of schools are rated good or above so shambolic schools is an unfair description.

Fill time 121s are rare and you have to have evidence to show that they are being used correctly and an EHCP is being followed correctly. They are not shared round classes, if an EHCP states an TA is only for the child in question and that child needs support at all times that is what happens. Many children don’t need or want to be shadowed and supported 24/7 and a TA working with a child with an EHCP learn to stand back and support other children alongside when appropriate IF that is appropriate on their EHCP. If a child has so much need a full time TA is stipulated for support in their EHCP very few teachers will use their TA elsewhere as the impact on the rest of the class would be huge.

There's plenty of threads on here from parents who have navigated the torturous EHCP process, secured a TA for their child's needs only to find that TA is then "shared" around the class to the detriment of their child. Often, given the shambolic state of things, they are used elsewhere in the school. They are also as a pp said, disproportionatly awarded to the "sharp elbowed" educated MC kids because the system is so convoluted and set up to put you off that less capable parents will simply give up and accept the first "no" they get.
Some posters seem insistent that the state provision works and meets needs despite glaring evidence to the contrary. If anyone can actually demonstrate evidence that THIS policy would actually fix state provision then I'd stop arguing against it. But so far no-one has.

And state schools

@ThursdayTomorrow my grandson attends a London independent he has an ADHD diagnosis. They do lots of PE, basically all afternoon, which helps him cope. Granddaughter at the same school has ADD, small class size and more 1-1 helps. Also suitable for hearing impaired children.
Both grandkids are bright won’t affect stats.
Im sure there are lots of other examples of SEN that most independents can accommodate.

I'm so sorry as I'm sure I should know this, but can you please just explain this:

"whether it is willing to expand the exception they have agreed to make for children with EHCPs to cover all children who attend private school in order to meet their SEND".

Has the government said that children with an EHCP attending a private school won't have to pay VAT on fees (assuming this comes in)?

Is it detrimental to the state sector for a child who isn’t really coping to be funded to go to an independent school? It may be in everyone’s best interest. If say you have 3 children with an EHCP in a class and one is funded to go to an independent school, does the state sector lose out? It may or may not be more expensive overall. Potentially there might be economies of scale from the state school catering to more children with special needs. But it might equally be that it is very difficult to manage the conflicting needs of the 3 children with EHCPs plus everyone else in a state school class even with a lot of extra support.

And can we really not afford to send a few children with SEN to private school if that’s the best option for the child? We’re not talking about Eton here. It’s a false economy to spend the minimum possible on children with SEN or force them to stay in an environment which they can barely cope with. It could be the difference between them staying at school long enough to get some qualifications, or their parents being able to work or them being independent as adults. The state would pay for very expensive medical care for a child who needs it - I don’t really see that paying for an appropriate education is fundamentally different given the effect it has on their future.,

Just as an a point to note. You cant argue that your child would be better off in a smaller class as your right isn't to a better education or the best available education.

You can evidence that the education on offer is not adequete/suitable for the child's sen and the needs can most affordabley be met in a particular way.

But those attending independent MS have been judged unable to have their needs met in state MS (i.e. “absolutely can’t attend [state] MS”) &/or it not be unreasonable public expenditure.

If you remove independent MS as an avenue, some of those will end up in independent SS instead. And some will end up with EOTAS, which I presume you also object to funding. Both of which will be significantly more expensive.