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Original poster

Why doesn't England have a National Anthem?

364 replies

itwontletmechoose · 14/07/2024 19:59

It's frustrating to hear them sing the 'God Save the King' British national anthem. Why doesn't England have its own national anthem instead of singing one which covers all of the union (in theory)?

OP posts:
Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 19:51

Muddlingalongsomehow · 15/07/2024 18:45

Seconding all the other Celts saying "it's not my anthem". Honestly, it's nothing to do with me. I don't think I have ever sung it. Not even as a kid, in Cardiff.

What other countries around the world bang on about the monarch and God and being reigned over? They don't. It's supposed to be about your beautiful country, your land, its people, what it means to you, a show of love and unity amongst its citizens, etc etc etc. That's what matters to me in our anthem.

As for Jerusalem, with its Christian symbolism... That might have worked a century ago. But hardly inclusive now.

Well Jerusalem also contains Greek myth symbolism but is largely Neoplatonic- even the Christian symbolism is Blake’s very non- conformist take. It’s important to continue with Christian symbolism imo it makes sense of our society

Diva66 · 15/07/2024 19:21

How about ‘There’ll always be an England’?

ClevererThanMost · 15/07/2024 19:17

Nothing like the Principality Stadium on match day, roof closed and the sound of My Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau from the stands. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 🌼 🐉

Muddlingalongsomehow · 15/07/2024 18:45

Seconding all the other Celts saying "it's not my anthem". Honestly, it's nothing to do with me. I don't think I have ever sung it. Not even as a kid, in Cardiff.

What other countries around the world bang on about the monarch and God and being reigned over? They don't. It's supposed to be about your beautiful country, your land, its people, what it means to you, a show of love and unity amongst its citizens, etc etc etc. That's what matters to me in our anthem.

As for Jerusalem, with its Christian symbolism... That might have worked a century ago. But hardly inclusive now.

Rockchicknana · 15/07/2024 18:07

VesperLind · 14/07/2024 20:03

Wales and Scotland have their own anthems. England’s should be either Jerusalem or Land of Hope and Glory (I think LoH&G should actually be the UK anthem).

I've been saying this for years! God Save the King is such a derge compared to other nation's anthems.

Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 14:45

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 14:37

Not exactly within living memory. The ban on the Welsh language started in 1535, and wasn’t repealed until the Welsh language act of 1967, Welsh wasn’t given equal footing with English until 1993.

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None of that is within my living memory either. Except 1993 which is a bit of a none event for most On that basis are you saying give it a couple more decades and it will be fine. Where are you going to draw the arbitrary cut off.

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 14:37

Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 14:28

They did a pretty good job 1000 years before

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Not exactly within living memory. The ban on the Welsh language started in 1535, and wasn’t repealed until the Welsh language act of 1967, Welsh wasn’t given equal footing with English until 1993.

Demonhunter · 15/07/2024 14:30

It should be either The Beatles Let it be, The Rolling Stones You can't always get what you want or Chas and Dave Mustn't Grumble.
One of those would get my vote.

Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 14:28

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 12:37

Well it wasn’t the French who tried to eradicate the Welsh language less than 100 years ago, so I’m not sure I understand what your point is.

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They did a pretty good job 1000 years before

Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 14:25

ErrolTheDragon · 15/07/2024 12:56

Except the garden of Eden apparently

Oh I dunno... gaining the knowledge of good and evil rather than staying blindly obedient to a deity sounds like a jolly good idea to me.Grin

Oh I agree with you, but the whole concept of the Garden of Eden only arises if you think staying faithful to a one true omnipotent god is the only way- we’ll that’s the Christian (mis) interpretation anyway😀

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 14:24

Rizzola95 · 15/07/2024 12:59

If you don't understand the point I'm making then reread the post where I made my point, don't use my post to illustrate something that misrepresents what I was saying.

Your post said the English never tried to suppress the Welsh language, which is factually incorrect, you then resorted to irrelevant whataboutery which I’m ignoring.

Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 14:22

SerafinasGoose · 15/07/2024 10:27

Further anthem suggestion: how about 'Brave Sir Robin ran away ...'

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Could make a comment about more suited for the French National anthem but the Francophiles here froth at the mouth enough already

Livelovebehappy · 15/07/2024 14:04

Snugglemonkey · 15/07/2024 01:13

The "others" don't give a fuck about your coat tails. Or your team. Actually, many millions of people actively want them to lose ASAP in every tournament they play in.

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As said in my subsequent emails - it was said tongue in cheek. But sorry if it's got you frothing at the mouth. Wasn't my intention....

Rizzola95 · 15/07/2024 12:59

If you don't understand the point I'm making then reread the post where I made my point, don't use my post to illustrate something that misrepresents what I was saying.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/07/2024 12:56

Except the garden of Eden apparently

Oh I dunno... gaining the knowledge of good and evil rather than staying blindly obedient to a deity sounds like a jolly good idea to me.Grin

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 12:37

Rizzola95 · 15/07/2024 12:26

I see the responses to my post completely overlook my entire point about "the English" in favour of compounding the blanket statement to make your points.

Well it wasn’t the French who tried to eradicate the Welsh language less than 100 years ago, so I’m not sure I understand what your point is.

Rizzola95 · 15/07/2024 12:26

I see the responses to my post completely overlook my entire point about "the English" in favour of compounding the blanket statement to make your points.

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 12:25

ClevererThanMost · 15/07/2024 12:17

We’re still held down by the way Welsh funding works too.

In order to look after our disproportionately vulnerable population in incredibly rural areas and to defend and encourage use of the language we have to have less of other things. (Barnett being based on headcount.). No consequential from HS2 etc.

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Absolutely, the Welsh NHS is underfunded - the barnet formula screws us over. The population of Wales has much higher percentage of severe illness, and the funds are insufficient to cover this.

ClevererThanMost · 15/07/2024 12:17

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 12:09

Speaking as an English person who’s lived in wales for 20 years, you are completely and utterly wrong. The English did try to eradicate the Welsh language. Children were caned for speaking in Welsh and had a wooden plack of shame hung around their necks called the Welsh not.

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We’re still held down by the way Welsh funding works too.

In order to look after our disproportionately vulnerable population in incredibly rural areas and to defend and encourage use of the language we have to have less of other things. (Barnett being based on headcount.). No consequential from HS2 etc.

Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 12:10

Chersfrozenface · 15/07/2024 11:49

It was.

Although there are linguistic links. 'Dragon' comes via French and Latin from the Greek 'drakon', meaning (a large serpent). One Old English term 'drake', as in 'firedrake' and nothing to do with male ducks, comes from the same root. Another Old English word 'wyrm' meant 'serpent' as well as 'dragon'.

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In Christianity both are linked with Satan at the beginning and end - symbolically interchangeable - do for these purposes - same thing

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 12:09

Rizzola95 · 15/07/2024 09:00

I'm sick of seeing ignorant statements like this left to stand, especially as it's being by used more and more to justify certain people's hateful xenophobia. It's all over the place.

"The English" did fuck all of the sort. It's utter ignorance, I mean it's natural to view history from your own country perspective and to not consider other peoples but don't fucking use your ignorance as a stick to beat others with, educate yourself.
"The English" will have been oppressed and abused by the same kings and laws. My ancestors will have had a terribly hard life. That doesn't make me a victim mind you, and it wouldn't excuse me picking out an arbitrary group of people to publicly denigrate.

See also criticism of "Westminster" to indicate anti English sentiment, conveniently overlooking that "the English" have no control, nor do we benefit from the privilege of those elites.

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Speaking as an English person who’s lived in wales for 20 years, you are completely and utterly wrong. The English did try to eradicate the Welsh language. Children were caned for speaking in Welsh and had a wooden plack of shame hung around their necks called the Welsh not.

Devonbabs · 15/07/2024 12:06

parkrun500club · 15/07/2024 11:57

I like Jerusalem too and it works well for the Commonwealth Games. If it's not considered inclusive enough on religious grounds someone could write new lyrics but the melody is lovely.

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The words don’t need rewriting, if you understood them you’d realise they were inclusive to all of humanity. - but nothing to do with jingoistic notions.

Parry was a good composer

OrwellianTimes · 15/07/2024 12:04

StaringAtTheWater · 14/07/2024 20:11

I totally agree - it's really weird when say, England play Wales in football or rugby, and England sing an anthem which is meant to represent Wales as well.

I admit I might be biased though as I think 'God Save the King' is incredibly dreary.

Trust me, the Welsh don’t care what the English sing. Just don’t ask them to sing GSTK.

parkrun500club · 15/07/2024 12:01

ClevererThanMost · 15/07/2024 10:47

You might want to look up the Welsh Not. An approach taken by English landowners in the 19th and 20th centuries to try and wipe out the Welsh language.

Or the more recent Barnett formula, a “temporary” invention of the 1970s to calculate the funding block for Wales which takes none of our unique circumstances into account.

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Actually Welsh parents thought their children would do better if they spoke English. But i guess that doesn't fit the narrative.

In any event, people who live in England now have nothing to do with what happened in the 19th century. It really is time to move on and look forward. Yes we should learn from history but we can be hamstrung by it too.

parkrun500club · 15/07/2024 11:57

bigvig · 15/07/2024 11:34

We absolutely need a new English anthem. Ideally get rid of God Save the King completely but at least let’s have something else for England. I cannot stand for an anthem which has the lyric ‘long to reign over us’. I’d basically be calling myself a ‘subject’ - which I refuse to be. I’d however love to sing ‘Jerusalem’.

I like Jerusalem too and it works well for the Commonwealth Games. If it's not considered inclusive enough on religious grounds someone could write new lyrics but the melody is lovely.