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To think it’s a lot of mental effort to keep up with gender these days?

169 replies

Oodiks · 10/07/2024 17:28

My 18 yo daughter recently started work at a pizza place and she’s been telling me how much more she likes this place than the last pizza place she worked at.

She didn’t want to bring food home from the first place, partly because she didn’t trust the industrial pizza dough that came on pallets, but mostly because it was all teenage boys working there and they didn’t wear gloves to prepare the food. The new place is better because they do wear gloves to prepare the food and it’s not all teenage boys.

I was a little confused, because all the names she’s mentioned, pretty much, are boy’s names, Milo is the only one I remember, but it’s all been boy’s names except for one person with a girl’s name, who she calls her work best friend. I comment and she’s, like, OMG, don’t make assumptions, it’s a very gender diverse place. But she does agree that females tend to be more hygiene aware, and we leave it like that.

But it leaves me uncomfortable. She clearly knows that these ‘boys’ are in fact girls, but can’t bring herself to say it, although she acknowledges by saying that these ‘boys’ are clean whereas she didn’t trust the ‘other boys’ to wash their hands.

What kind of mental gymnastics does that take?

OP posts:
Bournetilly · 11/07/2024 02:45

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:36

Not hard to keep up? Keep up with what? I've just discovered that the people she referred to as he and him with the male names, are, at least some of them, female and I'm curious about the mental load on her to be aware of the biological facts and ignore them to be 'nice'.

The title of the thread is literally ‘To think it’s a lot of mental effort to keep up with gender these days?’ I’m answering the question.

Im sure she understands way more than you think, it sounds like she does. Younger people are a lot more accepting. She doesn’t need to ignore biological facts to be nice, she is just being nice regardless.

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:43

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

I'm unbelievably proud of her.

OP posts:
Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:42

HolyPeaches · 11/07/2024 02:39

I didn’t say anything about trans women competing in women’s sport. I think there should be separate categories for that, or an extra mixed sex category if anyone wishes to compete in that.

But regarding teenagers just wanting to earn some money at a part time/Saturday job in a pizza place - why the need to be suspicious? Why the need to question them?

Sure as hell seems like they’re not offending anyone by merely existing. So what if they want to go by a different name. So what if they’re figuring out who they are. So what if they want to go by a pronoun that you personally don’t agree with. So what?

A) Thin end of the wedge.

B) I'm not being suspicious!

C) If I say I'm a man will I get the same pay differential as males do?

OP posts:
coupdetonnerre · 11/07/2024 02:42

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:41

Bournetilly · 11/07/2024 02:24

It’s not hard to keep up is it. Your DD is clearly able to keep up, she probably doesn’t want to talk about it with you as you don’t sound very accepting.

Jordan is definitely not just a male name btw. I’m sure some of the others aren’t either.

Jordan may be a unisex name now, but it is a traditionally male name.

I've got a male cousin call Lynne, lived with a guy called Lyndsey for years, and had a female childhood friend called Michael so I know that a 'male sounding' or 'female sounding' name isn't a sure thing, but if I introduced you to my friend Katie, you might be surprised if he was a 6'2" bloke with a beard.

OP posts:
coupdetonnerre · 11/07/2024 02:41

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

HolyPeaches · 11/07/2024 02:39

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:31

The way female athletes should just be nice when transwomen steal their trophies? The way women should just accept that transwomen are included in lists of rich and influential women? That's all fine, just be nicer.

I didn’t say anything about trans women competing in women’s sport. I think there should be separate categories for that, or an extra mixed sex category if anyone wishes to compete in that.

But regarding teenagers just wanting to earn some money at a part time/Saturday job in a pizza place - why the need to be suspicious? Why the need to question them?

Sure as hell seems like they’re not offending anyone by merely existing. So what if they want to go by a different name. So what if they’re figuring out who they are. So what if they want to go by a pronoun that you personally don’t agree with. So what?

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:36

Bournetilly · 11/07/2024 02:24

It’s not hard to keep up is it. Your DD is clearly able to keep up, she probably doesn’t want to talk about it with you as you don’t sound very accepting.

Jordan is definitely not just a male name btw. I’m sure some of the others aren’t either.

Not hard to keep up? Keep up with what? I've just discovered that the people she referred to as he and him with the male names, are, at least some of them, female and I'm curious about the mental load on her to be aware of the biological facts and ignore them to be 'nice'.

OP posts:
Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:26

Thedayb4youcame · 11/07/2024 01:05

So she's basing it on five people.

Edited

That's absolutely what I am saying, for real.

Srsly?

OP posts:
Bournetilly · 11/07/2024 02:24

It’s not hard to keep up is it. Your DD is clearly able to keep up, she probably doesn’t want to talk about it with you as you don’t sound very accepting.

Jordan is definitely not just a male name btw. I’m sure some of the others aren’t either.

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:20

TheKeatingFive · 11/07/2024 02:06

God what a mess. She can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of it all and I guess she's not alone there. Hold firm, she'll get there in the end.

Thank you, that's what it is, cognitive dissonance. On the whole she's a feminist and furious at the patriarchy, but on the gender issue she just shuts down.

OP posts:
Oodiks · 11/07/2024 02:19

Revelatio · 10/07/2024 18:45

I would say grubby teenage boys are definitely a gender stereotype.

Because it's true?

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TheKeatingFive · 11/07/2024 02:06

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:36

I think what I find difficult is that I know she knows what the biological reality is, but there's a barrier to discussing anything gender related and I feel it's in part due to the mental load of her knowing one thing and accepting another as true in the face of that knowledge.

God what a mess. She can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of it all and I guess she's not alone there. Hold firm, she'll get there in the end.

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:36

Buddysbunda · 11/07/2024 01:26

Tbh all of the kids are actually aware of their sex so I wouldn't be in that position. It's not that deep with any of them, like I said it's more like trying different styles than anything else. They know full well that there is a difference between Dave who was born dave and ciara who has decided to be dave for a while. They just don't see it as a big deal that ciara has decided to be dave for a while and won't see it as a big deal if ciara decides to be ciara again or if she decides to be Alex next.

Its obviously a topic that riles you up and it did me too until I saw how unserious they actually are about the whole thing. They really aren't walking around not knowing the difference between male and female. I sure there are a few who are but as far as I can tell the mainstream kind of 'gender bending' for want of better term is just playing around.

I think what I find difficult is that I know she knows what the biological reality is, but there's a barrier to discussing anything gender related and I feel it's in part due to the mental load of her knowing one thing and accepting another as true in the face of that knowledge.

OP posts:
Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:31

HolyPeaches · 11/07/2024 01:26

I mean yeah, being a nice person and accepting of others is how we make the world a better place, no?

I’d imagine it to be completely exhausting if you lived life constantly suspicious and questioning everybody and everything.

If your DD is concerned about hygiene (or any other issue) from certain colleagues she should raise this with the general manager. Failing that, if it’s a chain then go to HQ.

The way female athletes should just be nice when transwomen steal their trophies? The way women should just accept that transwomen are included in lists of rich and influential women? That's all fine, just be nicer.

OP posts:
Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:30

HolyPeaches · 11/07/2024 01:26

I mean yeah, being a nice person and accepting of others is how we make the world a better place, no?

I’d imagine it to be completely exhausting if you lived life constantly suspicious and questioning everybody and everything.

If your DD is concerned about hygiene (or any other issue) from certain colleagues she should raise this with the general manager. Failing that, if it’s a chain then go to HQ.

So, it's either question nothing or question everything? No middle ground for curiosity?

OP posts:
HolyPeaches · 11/07/2024 01:26

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:00

You're right, we should all just be nice and not question anybody or anything, wouldn't want to make a 'big deal' out of anything, ever.

Be nice.

I mean yeah, being a nice person and accepting of others is how we make the world a better place, no?

I’d imagine it to be completely exhausting if you lived life constantly suspicious and questioning everybody and everything.

If your DD is concerned about hygiene (or any other issue) from certain colleagues she should raise this with the general manager. Failing that, if it’s a chain then go to HQ.

Buddysbunda · 11/07/2024 01:26

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:15

So you'd be fine with your daughter having a sleepover with a person who is quite clearly male but telling you they are a girl? You wouldn't feel the need to discuss it with her, because they're just girls having a girls sleepover?

Interesting.

And what do you do if your son gets his friend Dave (he/him) pregnant?

Tbh all of the kids are actually aware of their sex so I wouldn't be in that position. It's not that deep with any of them, like I said it's more like trying different styles than anything else. They know full well that there is a difference between Dave who was born dave and ciara who has decided to be dave for a while. They just don't see it as a big deal that ciara has decided to be dave for a while and won't see it as a big deal if ciara decides to be ciara again or if she decides to be Alex next.

Its obviously a topic that riles you up and it did me too until I saw how unserious they actually are about the whole thing. They really aren't walking around not knowing the difference between male and female. I sure there are a few who are but as far as I can tell the mainstream kind of 'gender bending' for want of better term is just playing around.

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:22

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:21

The genitals are only relevant in that one sex doesn't seem to think that touching their genitals is unhygienic and the other knows it is.

Plus, your MiL may be a complete freak, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of females have better hygiene that the majority of males.

OP posts:
Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:21

TwoShades1 · 11/07/2024 01:19

I’m not sure it takes any mental gymnastics. Their genders are mostly irrelevant. She has learnt their names (as she would regardless of gender) and finds them to be enjoyable work mates. She likes that they are more hygienic. For what it’s worth my MIL has appalling food hygiene and she’s definitely a woman! Personally I don’t care about the genitals, name, or clothing/style choices of the person making my pizza in a restaurant.

The genitals are only relevant in that one sex doesn't seem to think that touching their genitals is unhygienic and the other knows it is.

OP posts:
TwoShades1 · 11/07/2024 01:19

I’m not sure it takes any mental gymnastics. Their genders are mostly irrelevant. She has learnt their names (as she would regardless of gender) and finds them to be enjoyable work mates. She likes that they are more hygienic. For what it’s worth my MIL has appalling food hygiene and she’s definitely a woman! Personally I don’t care about the genitals, name, or clothing/style choices of the person making my pizza in a restaurant.

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:18

kkloo · 11/07/2024 01:10

Absolute nonsense that it's the OP who is making it difficult.

It's always been normal when having conversations with people to hear peoples genders specified or else to automatically know the gender by hearing the name the vast majority of the time. If it's a unisex name then people specify.

Our brains are designed to categorise and make assumptions so if I hear someone talk about a 'John' I'm going to apply the gender of man to the name, if I hear 'Mary' I'm going to apply the gender of female.

Edited

Thank you!

OP posts:
kkloo · 11/07/2024 01:15

Ivyrosecrayon · 11/07/2024 01:07

Why do you need to do mental gymnastics?
Leave the young people to it. As has always happened since the dawn of time, young people have their own new ideas about how to live that may seem odd to you.. but clearly your daughter understands it so just stay out of it.
Leave the younger generation to create the world how they want it.
You just risk being a replica of your nan saying 'this is just noise' and 'no one has common sense anymore'... whilst everyone under 25 rolls their eyes.

Not all young people go along with this nonsense.
My kids think the outrage over 'assuming someones gender' is ridiculous.
Thank God, because I wouldn't be pandering to them!

Oodiks · 11/07/2024 01:15

Buddysbunda · 11/07/2024 01:11

My kids are teens and have friends who are 'gender diverse'. It occupies none of my brain space at all really, I follow their lead and call their friends by whatever name they've picked and move on with my day. They are just kids and I expect they will grow out of it. When I think back to some of the stupid things me and my friends did as teens kids changing their names really isn't a big deal.

Tbh I used to think it was more of a big deal until my kids were teens and I saw how willy nilly they are with it all, today she is Ciara tomorrow she is Tobias the next day she is Alex. It seems a bit like trying different styles, skater girl, goth girl, emo girl all of which I may or may not have tried to be as a teen 😳 They are all lovely so it's not hard to be nice to them.

So you'd be fine with your daughter having a sleepover with a person who is quite clearly male but telling you they are a girl? You wouldn't feel the need to discuss it with her, because they're just girls having a girls sleepover?

Interesting.

And what do you do if your son gets his friend Dave (he/him) pregnant?

OP posts:
Buddysbunda · 11/07/2024 01:11

My kids are teens and have friends who are 'gender diverse'. It occupies none of my brain space at all really, I follow their lead and call their friends by whatever name they've picked and move on with my day. They are just kids and I expect they will grow out of it. When I think back to some of the stupid things me and my friends did as teens kids changing their names really isn't a big deal.

Tbh I used to think it was more of a big deal until my kids were teens and I saw how willy nilly they are with it all, today she is Ciara tomorrow she is Tobias the next day she is Alex. It seems a bit like trying different styles, skater girl, goth girl, emo girl all of which I may or may not have tried to be as a teen 😳 They are all lovely so it's not hard to be nice to them.