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To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

390 replies

Itsmyshadow · 10/07/2024 12:55

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

OP posts:
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Maria1979 · 10/07/2024 19:41

So happy this was not an issue when I grew up. My parents were gender critical in the sense that they did not want to push us in to stereotypes. I loved football and I was very adventureous like one of my brothers. My other brother loved to play with dolls and was very calm. Today we would be on drugs and have undergone surgery surely..

Allie47 · 10/07/2024 19:36

Feelinglow27 · 10/07/2024 13:23

I was in uni till 2001 and we were taught to be gender critical and that gender is a construct. I have no idea how this has regressed so much.

I was working for a charity who housed women and children in London who were fleeing abusive relationships. This was in 2008. We only had female care staff, no men were allowed in any of the hostels and this absolutely included transwomen. It was written into our policies (this was pre equality act). The act was badly written with regard to single sex exemptions and I think have created a bit of a loophole for men to exploit, where no uncertainty had previously existed.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 10/07/2024 19:15

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 17:44

@IamaRevenant

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else.

I’m as Terfy as they come but I - along with the vast majority of TERFs I’ve met - aren’t at all against people being trans. Call yourself whatever you like, wear what you want, live as you please, date/have sex with whomever you want as long as it’s legal and consensual. But I believe a) no one changes sex, b) men need to stay out of women-only spaces and c) transitioning children is profoundly wrong. And all of that trumps a trans person’s right to live as they want, because it’s the path of least harm where there are conflicting rights.

Edited

Exactly. I call myself a MERF. Male exclusionary. I have no problem with females being in female spaces. Males I do.

Dery · 10/07/2024 19:14

I’m repeating myself but why do we even use the word ‘tomboy’? I stopped using it when my two DDs (now late teens) were little. Why suggest that anything a girl does or doesn’t do makes her a quasi-boy? I was born in the late 60s and came of age in the 1980s. Men wore makeup; women wore dungarees. We climbed trees, rolled in the mud, played cops and robbers. No-one - in my world anyway - saw that as impacting on your biological sex.

It feels like we’ve suddenly been catapulted back about 150 years with the most regressive notions of what it means to be a girl or woman. It’s so troubling.

IamaRevenant · 10/07/2024 19:00

Getonwitit · 10/07/2024 18:27

That is awful, your poor niece. As a young girl, i played football, had action men, loved cars, bikes and cowboys. I have never been "girly" but i am 100% female. If i had been born in the last 15 years i fear i would be in the same situation as your niece. I can only hope her mother pays the price in years to come.

My DN is 15 and is in the same situation. Apparently around half her class are now trans or non binary. It's going too far.

IamaRevenant · 10/07/2024 18:53

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 17:02

This is what I mean about gender ideology being regressive.

Why can’t a man have long hair, a handbag and lovely shoes? Why would anyone say “You can’t be a man dressing like that! You must be a woman”.

Totally. My H looks fucking great with eyeliner and nail polish and bright blue long hair, I try to encourage it all I can, he's still all man 😅

Similarly my niece looked awesome whether she was in the suit she wore to her dad and stepmum's wedding or the minidress she just wore to my sister's. I honestly cannot see her as a boy (neither can her mum or dad... this is all coming from school and SM). She's what we'd have called a tomboy. As is her mum, stepmum and aunts (me included). And she's gay and has a (lovely) girlfriend but that doesn't mean she's a boy.

cherish123 · 10/07/2024 18:50

YADNU
It's very damaging for young people.

Spinachandcheese · 10/07/2024 18:44

Sorry hit the wrong button - not unreasonable. Why on earth would you want your child to disable themselves on purpose with hormones/surgery if there was a path to them being happy as they are, where they can just be themselves.

Mumof2girls2121 · 10/07/2024 18:42

They don’t teach this in my daughter’s school.

also she’s a girl who likes football, sports and has never enjoyed playing with dolls. she’s still a girl.

OldChinaJug · 10/07/2024 18:34

Itsmyshadow · 10/07/2024 12:55

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

Totally agree.

I'm a primary teacher and I've taught several girls who sound like your daughter.

Only one of those girls had parents who were completely supportive of their gender non conforming ways. The rest of them were frustrated and upset because they were told those things were for boys.

I was the one who told them about women's football encouraged them to see that they could like anything they wanted.

Strict adherence to reductive stereotypes underpins all of this nonsense.

Getonwitit · 10/07/2024 18:27

Theyearwas1973 · 10/07/2024 13:20

100% agree.

If my 14 year old niece had a mother like you then she wouldn’t be in the mess she is now, having been forced (by her mother and the Tavistock centre etc) to identify as a boy just because she has shown no interest in traditional girl activities, clothing and ideals (and not forgetting her autism diagnosis which has been pushed to one side in favour of going down this ridiculous route).

It’s too late for her as the damage has been done but we need a drastic turnaround before we fuck up hundreds of more lives.

That is awful, your poor niece. As a young girl, i played football, had action men, loved cars, bikes and cowboys. I have never been "girly" but i am 100% female. If i had been born in the last 15 years i fear i would be in the same situation as your niece. I can only hope her mother pays the price in years to come.

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 18:17

@IamaRevenant

So I am a TERF. Happy to own it, although my SIL and several friends use that as an insult regularly.

Welcome to the TERF side We can offer excellent snacks ( <offers biscuit> ) and a dry sense of humour.

TERF was a term generally used as a slur but we reclaimed it…

TeaGinandFags · 10/07/2024 18:13

You're doing great.

The whole point of gender as a concept is to tell people what they can NOT do. Eg girls can't want to be astronauts and boys can't want to be nurses.

It's all bollocks.

I'm a woman because I have a female body and I'm an adult. My female body meant that I got pregnant and if I could have made him do that .... But he was male and it was impossible for him to do so.

Tell your DD that reproductive potential is what differentiates the sexes. Features as curvy hips or facial hair are secondary characteristics. Wearing skirts and playing with Action Man (and my boys have done both) are socially ascribed, not intrinsic, features.

Girls who prefer to act like boys are traditionally called tomboys. They may grow out of it or they may not. It's no one else's business but hers.

If anyone tells your beautiful daughter thst she's trans, kill them. It'll be for their own good.

A1ia · 10/07/2024 18:08

I definitely don't conform to typical feminine gender stereotypes. I dress modestly, mostly in trousers (very, very rarely wear dresses etc); I don't wear heeled shoes and I don't wear make up (ever)... As a child, I liked playing with train sets, toy cars and lego. I only owned a Barbie to take to school for own toys day, as the other girls would pass remarks if I didn't have one to bring... However, I have never, ever questioned my gender identity. I'm a woman. End of conversation.

I wish we had more focus on people just being themselves and less focus on trying to put people into boxes or claiming that there is something wrong with their "assigned at birth" sex.

Men and women come in all shapes and sizes, with varied interests. Be happy being you - I think that's the message we should share.

That is not to deny that some people are transgender. In fact, my stepson is. He began to socially transition when he was 12, medically transitioning from about 15 years old. He is now a gay man. He seems very happy and content in his choices and knows that he is loved for who he is - gender not being any sort of issue or limitation on that love.

UpThereForThinkingDownThereForDancing · 10/07/2024 18:05

I was just like your DD. Quite pissed off I was a girl actually, it seemed to get in the way of everything I liked and wanted.
Eventually I found a way to be me, still not gender confirming. DH loves me, my body gave me two kids. I'm happy being female, and think it should be ok to be a female in whatever way you want to do it... Doesn't mean you need to go to war with your body. Or people should assume you don't want to be female

Hotgirlwinter · 10/07/2024 18:02

Well yes they’ve got it completely wrong.

Gender stereotypes have always been dangerous and should be challenged as much as possible.

Gender ideology should not be taught in school, genuine gender dysmorphia should be treated the same way any dysmorphia would be = therapy

TheKeatingFive · 10/07/2024 17:58

Whoops X post

TheKeatingFive · 10/07/2024 17:58

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else

No this isn't accurate. The F stands for feminism and the Exclusionary bit refers to not including 'Transwomen' in their feminism (because they are men) ie not being intersectional in that way.

I don't think there are very many who are 'actively against people' who are trans who aren't impacting others.

GC and TERF mean pretty much the same thing

IamaRevenant · 10/07/2024 17:57

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 17:44

@IamaRevenant

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else.

I’m as Terfy as they come but I - along with the vast majority of TERFs I’ve met - aren’t at all against people being trans. Call yourself whatever you like, wear what you want, live as you please, date/have sex with whomever you want as long as it’s legal and consensual. But I believe a) no one changes sex, b) men need to stay out of women-only spaces and c) transitioning children is profoundly wrong. And all of that trumps a trans person’s right to live as they want, because it’s the path of least harm where there are conflicting rights.

Edited

Agree with everything you've said so thanks for explaining! So I am a TERF. Happy to own it, although my SIL and several friends use that as an insult regularly. It's not something that's top of my political agenda so apologies for not getting it right.

If anybody wanted to discuss the PCSC Bill, homelessness, BLM, surrogacy, the housing crisis or poverty I'd be right on it so I'm not entirely clueless about current affairs 😅. I suppose we all have our priorities!

SidewaysOtter · 10/07/2024 17:44

@IamaRevenant

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else.

I’m as Terfy as they come but I - along with the vast majority of TERFs I’ve met - aren’t at all against people being trans. Call yourself whatever you like, wear what you want, live as you please, date/have sex with whomever you want as long as it’s legal and consensual. But I believe a) no one changes sex, b) men need to stay out of women-only spaces and c) transitioning children is profoundly wrong. And all of that trumps a trans person’s right to live as they want, because it’s the path of least harm where there are conflicting rights.

IamaRevenant · 10/07/2024 17:39

spannasaurus · 10/07/2024 16:10

May I ask what you think the difference is between GC and TERF

Christ almighty I've already said I wasn't sure! I'm willing to be educated but not patronised. As I understand it -

GC - believing that nobody can change gender (or sex obviously) but not necessarily against people being trans so long as they keep out of women's spaces, sports, prisons etc.

TERF - being actively against people being trans in any way, even when it's interfering with nobody else.

If the above is correct then I'm GC. My two trans friends do not affect anyone, they're very respectful of women's spaces etc and genuinely just seem like women to me. My neighbour is a fucking predator who tries to have 'pyjama parties' and 'accidentally' book double hotel rooms with female friends, and once asked me and my husband if we could make an excuse to go out and leave him with my husband's closest (bi) female friend so he could 'see what happens' (she had zero interest in the bloke with a beard in a dress funnily enough).

So yeah according to my understanding I am GC (also very much a feminist but don't believe trans people should be excluded entirely). Again, happy to be educated if I've got it wrong!

DrBlackbird · 10/07/2024 17:36

Winterborne74 · 10/07/2024 13:49

Information about Pop ‘n’ Olly here. Should not be in schools in my view.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/dorset-ideological-capture/

And yet you get so many posters insisting this isn’t happening and it’s all silly women over reacting.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/07/2024 17:27

WhereIsTheHare · 10/07/2024 17:18

Yes, I agree. We have medicalised something which is really a social matter. It’s all part of the over-protection of children I see now. I have been recruiting early years professionals for 25 years, and over that time there has been a distinct trend downwards in their maturity, resilience, entitlement and expectations over that time. The treatment of children as if nothing unpleasant or challenging should ever have to touch them has been part of creating this climate, and the terror of puberty which has been engendered is one serious symptom of this phenomenon. Children and teenagers are much more capable of dealing with emotions and issues than we give them credit for, if we would only let them feel the feelings and support them in overcoming them, rather than do anything and everything to avoid them having the feelings in the first place.

I know we have poverty in the UK and many a child is growing up in less than desirable conditions but we despite all the privilege we do have some how our kids are suffering massively witg their mental health.

The very notion of anyone being able to think about gender identity is proof alone of how much more privileged people are than in many other countries.

No one walking miles a day fir clean water, no girl who is having to drop out of school due to no period protection, no child being sold off to men 4 times their age for marriage is sat around contemplating which of the 100s of genders they are.

As you say treating kids as if Any form of negative event is trauma, cause for ptsd, proof that everyone hates them etc os not helping them in any way.

Kids who deal with far worse ate stull standing while ours are threatening to hurt themselves because they can't wear a skirt.

Something has gone massively wrong

BarryStyles · 10/07/2024 17:25

@Whatwouldscullydo this 100%!
Yes puberty can be hard but it’s an essential part of life and development, we should be reassuring and supporting, not helping them avoid. Where does that leave them at their next hurdle, never mind what are the long term effects of unnecessary medicalisation?

BarryStyles · 10/07/2024 17:24

@Whatwouldscullydo this 100%!
Yes puberty can be hard but it’s an essential part of life and development, we should be reassuring and supporting, not helping them avoid. Where does that leave them at their next hurdle, never mind what are the long term effects of unnecessary medicalisation?

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