To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

Op my dd always gravitated toward trains and stuff like that. I did buy her doll and she wasn't interested.
I never saw it as a gender thing just that she liked a range of stuff?

She went through a phase about 8 of wanting to be a boy and we had to call her Sam. A few months later she wanted to be a dog, have her food served on the floor and wear a collar.

Both phases that quickly passed.

I don't think it has anything to do with gender identity, which I think is something quite different.

It becomes about gender identity when adults tell them it is.
Many mean well and just want to help, many want to demonstrate just how progressive and cool they are (unfortunately there are several teachers in this bracket), many see it as connected to the homophobia of the past (Section 28 etc).... and some are nefarious actors.

It would certainly be a lot simpler if clothes preferences etc were not connected to the idea that we all have a gender identity.

I grew up in the 70s. I wax taught girls can do what boys can do. I had short hair, wore trousers, didn’t like dolls. Nobody cared. Nobody commented on it.

When one adult asked my mother if I was a ‘tomboy’, she said No she’s herself.

It’s all nonsense but like all trends people are making money from it.

You are the sex you are born regardless of any body modifications, clothes or hair length

I have a dd who was never into pink dresses etc. She wore boys clothes, loved football and had a lot of male friends. She never once said she was a boy though and tbh I never gave it a second thought.

When you are a young girl, boys do seem to have a more fun life, running around more, practical clothing, not so much social emphasis on being quiet and "good". It doesn't surprise me that girls want some of that.

I don't think it has anything to do with gender identity, which I think is something quite different.

As I recognise your username from the FWR board, I'm imagining that what you're imagining is correct.

I don't want to derail this thread but I think it's important that parents are aware (at a high level) of some of the online risks that may not be immediately apparent.

When the health risks associated with children and gender identity belief were discussed in the House of Commons were discussed on 15th April, one of the politicians (I can't remember her name) did make a reference to online gro0ming. This is one example of it. There are many other examples of "egg hunting" (adults looking for vulnerable children with whom they can talk about a transgender identity as an answer to their adolescent confusion) and also other examples of an anime and/or gaming link that impact girls too e.g. fanfic and other erotica literature. As with boys, it's often autistic girls and/or girls who struggle socially who are drawn in to it.

If anyone is interested in the HoC debate, here's a link:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5050831-debate-happening-in-house-of-commons-victoria-atkins-on-fire

The video in the OP doesn't work any more but there is an archived link further down the thread.

It's still topical because in the final 3 days of the Tory government, the then Health Secretary used extraordinary powers from the Medical Act 1968 to ban all puberty blockers in the UK, owing to the significant risk associated with them. This ban could only be in place for a maximum of 3 months, so ends on 3rd September unless it is extended by the new government. Wes Streeting has indicated that he would extend it.

In short there is lots of outside influence on teenagers which risks drawing them to believe that they are in the wrong body and putting them on a pathway towards irrerversible medical interventions and surgeries. Ostensibly they are given "time to think" but in practice, their affirmative journey in this belief begins very early on.

True

And have been called all sorts of names because of it.

There are strong forces pushing this position. It's hard to understand (fully) where they have come from or what their motivation is.

There is a huge difference between gender and sex.

Gender is entirely socially constructed, where as your sex is your DNA.

My 7 year old son told me he wanted to be a girl. I drilled down into that more, only to find out he only wanted long hair. I then showed him pictures of male celebs etc with long hair. Now he says he's a boy.

I think we will find that if we just allow kids to express themselves, have deeper and honest conversations with them, then the actual number of trans people would be significantly lower (not that I have an issue with it anyway - live and let live)

There are adolesent boys who are straight, who are encouraged by older people online (known as "egg hunting") to conflate their emerging sexual feelings with an attraction to themselves as a female gaming avatar or similar. It's big in the gaming and anime world. They are encouraged to see themselves as lesbian and to demand acceptance as such.

WTF?! I’d ask why the older people are encouraging them in this but sadly I can well imagine.

Who exactly is this 'we' who has got it wrong? Feminists, including many on Mumsnet, have been saying this for years- decades, in some cases!

To expand on why it's homophobic:

1. There are many adolescent girls and boys who experience an emerging same-sex attraction and feel uncomfortable about this. Sadly using "gay" as a slur is still a thing in schools. Some will grab on to a way to "fix" this by identifying as straight and the opposite sex. They'll be encouraged to see their hobbies and clothes preferences as evidence that they are in the wrong body, if these stereotypically "align" with those of the opposite sex.
2. There are adolesent boys who are straight, who are encouraged by older people online (known as "egg hunting") to conflate their emerging sexual feelings with an attraction to themselves as a female gaming avatar or similar. It's big in the gaming and anime world. They are encouraged to see themselves as lesbian and to demand acceptance as such. This forces lesbian women in to situations where they are called transphobic for not accepting "girldick". It's a rehash of a previous homophobic attitude where lesbians were told they just hadn't met the right man yet.

In both cases, autistic children and/or those who may struggle socially are disproportionately impacted by the confusing information about what being a girl or a boy means. Particularly if a lot of their socialising is online.

Couple of typos. D'oh.

Great thread, OP.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

To add (and I've seen a couple of other PPs say similar to): there is no need to identify as anything.

I would happily have said in the past that I identified as a woman but I've realised that I don't.

I'm not saying I'm non-binary or agender, simply that I don't identify as anything. I am a woman but I don't identify as one.

There are some people who believe that we all have a gender identity, for whom identifying as a girl, boy, woman, man etc is meaningful. There are also plenty of people who don't believe that we all have a gender identity and think that teaching it to children as fact is wrong, a transwoman's belief that they are a woman shouldn't give them access to women's sports etc etc.

Why did I change my mind on what I believe? Many reasons but this video really helped me to get my head around it all:

Obviously there are some people who hold this belief and feel a genuine distress that they are "in the wrong body" (and there are some who feign this to their own advantage e.g. Isla Bryson... there are many Isla Brysons unfortunately, many/most of whom identity as "lesbian"). There are also children who are vulnerable to believing this, based on being taught what being a girl or being a boy should "feel" like and feeling uncomfortable that their hobbies, preferences and (in adolesence) sexual orientation don't "match" what is "normal". Personally I find it homophobic and regressive, but people should be free to hold a belief that we all have a gender identity. They should also be free to say that they don't.

Agree. Politicians should never have used legislation to create this mess

Fully agree with you OP.

Children should be taught that people have varied interests, talents, clothes, hairstyles, jobs, personalities etc. and that it is not possible to change sex.

And society should never have accepted the word 'transwoman' and use of 'she/her' for males because it obfuscates the person's sex.

Agree, and I think it's very wrong for schools to be pushing this agenda on kids and something I would have pulled my children out of as you did.
When I was growing up there were plenty of girls who hated skirts and make up, were considered tom boys. Everyone just lived their lives back then without anyone jumping on this behaviour and turning it into something it's not. All those girls ended up having very normal lives as girls/women and even as far as I know straight. My daughter loves dolls and her favourite colour is pink, but she's also great at kicking a football around with her dad. We should just let kids be kids, if they're going to go down another route in adult life fine, that's their choice, but never something that should be put on them in childhood or influenced in any way.

When my sons were born in the early 2010s you could have bought pink/ blue gendered everything.

I didn't know what sex of babies I was having and bought things that I liked that I would want to use for more than one baby. For clothes, I didn't restrict to the "boys" section and bought attractive, practical clothes.

As they've grown up, I've gone along with their interests and likes and haven't restricted them to "boy" clichés. The result is two children happy with long hair, and to wear some "feminine" garments because the textiles are comfortable to them. One likes lighter "feminine" colours and doesn't restrict himself purely to "masculine" sludge colours. They don't define their masculinity through their varying degrees of (un) interest in football, they're free to like what they like and are confident in their sense of self.

Sometimes people assume that they're girls because they're still young enough to look androgenous; they just politely correct them.

One is autistic. It's better for him that we focus on meeting his autistic needs and being comfortable than getting distracted by pathologising "gender preferences". Most of it's obvious- he doesn't like the sensory assault of the hairdressers, and likes certain fabrics.

I know another younger child who is more concious of gender. Fortunately the parents are just working with what the child likes and not blowing it into a big identity issue. This gives more flexibility for the child to adapt as they get older and hormones hit. The child also likes some clichés of their own sex as well as the opposite, so pushing trans-identities would deny them of some of their genuine interests. There is also neurodiversity in the family...

While posting, I've randomly put on a 100 synth-pop hits video... things were so much progressive at breaking boundaries 40 years ago. It's a shame that we've hit regressive attitudes in recent years. The irony is that "non-binary" is actually reinforcing stereotypes and pushing them into binary extremes and undoing the hard-won progress of recent decades.

A culture of aggression and silencing has been hugely damaging

I find it hard that we can promote boys identifying as girls and vice versa at the same age they also think they are astraunauts or Chase from Paw Patrol.

Thanks for this sensible and cheering thread, OP.

We need more role models of happy, healthy, gender non-conforming women.

It'll just have to be us, seeing as the world's gone a bit weird about stereotypes in the past few years.

OP, you and your daughter sound great. There are many ways to be a woman and I absolutely agree that celebrating women who your daughter may see as inspirational and role models will be valuable.

Good luck to you both.

Male exclusionary. I have no problem with females being in female spaces. Males I do.

Good point

The emphasis should be children can have a broad range of interests and whatever they wear etc

We should remove the adult idea of ‘trans’

And just let children be free as the sex they are, and can’t charge