To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

I cannot conceive how anyone could think this is unreasonable. But it looks like 6% think you are. Would be interesting to hear from them why...

I think it is really confusing for little kids. What should be taught, if anything, in this case is the opposite - not if you like football then you must be a boy, but it's ok to like XY and Z or dress in a skirt or shorts if you are a boy or girl, and it's it what you like or how you dress that makes a difference as to what sex you are. And when they are a bit older that it doesn't matter which sex you are attracted to, it doesn't mean then you have to change gender and be opposite to your partner.

Even before transgender issues came to the fore my daughter was told by little kids in reception class that because she wore shorts with her uniform and had bobbed hair she must be a boy.

And DD2 (15) when they were in Y6 only a few years ago their sex education course was from about 20 years earlier and didn't even mention being attracted to a person who is the same sex as you.

Couldn’t agree more OP.

I worked in a school for years, and I can’t even tell you how many children changed from boy to girl then back to boy and visa versa. It was made way too easy for them to do so, with name changes allowed on the register and instant staff meetings to tell
us what they would now be called.

Never once was it suggested to do things the way you have said, this would have helped to stop such alot of psychological damage to children that don’t understand the enormity of what they are doing.

I was exactly the same as your daughter as a child. I was the only girl on the football team, wore boys clothes and hung around with mostly boys. Not once did I ever think oh I'm a boy as back then it wasn't a 'thing'.
Now as an adult yes I do like to wear dresses and skirts for work and special occasions but you'll normally catch me in a hoody/jumper and comfy clothes.
I totally agree with how you've managed the situation with your daughter and will be the same if my children feel the same. I may get shot down for this but in my opinion people are too quick to make judgements and push opinions down young children's throats. Let them grow up and be innocent like we were.

I want to go out and skywrite ‘There are as many ways to be a girl as there are girls on the planet. You are you and you are perfect’ and just have it there every day. I cannot understand how all the progress we made in swiping away sex stereotypes has been so comprehensively undone. I was a child in the 70s. I wore my boy cousins’ hand me down clothes, I played Lego and cars and loved cricket and ALSO loved cooking and had Sindy dolls. I was completely normal. So were all the other girls. So were all the boys with long hair and brightly coloured anoraks and crimplene flares who played with their sisters and sisters’ friends, and nobody thought anyone was ‘wrong’.

DH and I can’t have children, but we are now so glad we aren’t having to try to help teens and young adults navigate this bewildering and narrow world where, despite the massively increased opportunities and knowledge available to them, they are being squeezed into the narrowest stereotypes in most of history. It’s shameful.

YANBU and I'm so glad my children were young when they were.

DS1 was at 8 (so 11-12 years ago) when he told me he sometimes wished he was a girl. What he meant was that he wished it was socially acceptable to be a bit who loved sewing, dancing, craft, and other traditionally "girl" things.

Instead of transing him I, and the school, looked at other males who like that kind of thing (teaching kids that Wolverine, aka Hugh Jackman, tap dances is great!) And did lessons around accepting people whatever their hobbies and interests.

He's now a proud and happy gay man who still loves to dance, although doesn't sew these days.

I think you're right in that there's an accepted phrase "tomboy" for a girl who doesn't fit stereotypes but no equivalent for boys who don't "conform" to stereotypes

I have a teenage girl and as you can imagine this is a hot topic in our household. We have had conversations about how she identifies. The answer was mum, I identify as me and I’m happy being me.

We have yet to ever hear a story that doesn't start with " he always liked to dance and wear dresses, we thought at first he might be gay at 2) it should be so obvious it's all stereotypes m. When did adults become so thick. What caused this inability to think.

This is also the biggest frustration for me. So close to breaking stereotypes about boys and girls being put into boxes of acceptable behaviour/likes/presentation for their sex. The gender ideology comes along, reinforcing those stereotypes with titanium walls.

I agree. My cousin was what was known as a tomboy. She loved football, wore boys clothes rather than girls. As she got older her friends were mainly men, she drank pints and even joined a male dominated career.

She still prefers men’s clothes over women’s but she is proud to be female.

We talked about this recently and she said if she had grown up in today’s world, she would have believed she was meant to be male. 30 years ago that wasn’t a thing we had ever heard of. She explained how scary that thought is especially as she is a mother now and that wouldn’t have been able to happen.

children should not be able to make these decisions and certainly not influenced.

I’m not saying I don’t believe any of it but we have 14 trans teens in our school of 900. Is it really that common?

This is key, tbh, instilling confidence in them about their choices if they are 'non-conforming' in any way. That ppl WILL question them, WILL be cruel or, perhaps worse, try to diagnose them. We need to give them the tools to deal with those things in the knowledge that the problem is entirely the other person's, not theirs.

You're completely correct. It's also a product of today's over genderised culture. When I was a young girl I was into Pokémon and sport, no one once suggested to me these were boy activities, they were considered gender neutral back then.

I only mentioned the late 80s because that's when my first child was born, and not really clued up on what happened before. I know in my 70s childhood there was a lot of sex based stereotyping and that it wasn't something I wanted to replicate for my children.

Couldn't agree more, all we're doing is confusing kids. I was a massive tom boy as a child and hated anything girly, some of that nonsense would of honestly been making me question myself!

Your daughter was me, op. 50 years ago. When it was totally normal and within the expected spectrum of behaviour for girls to be into "boy" stuff. My socially conservative parents were 100 % fine with it and encouraged me to be what ever I wanted to be.
I think the problem is that society has always "struggled" with feminine boys. my parents were cool with me as a gender nonconforming girl. I know they would have been less so had I been a boy

another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender

I hope she told the child (or would now have the confidence to tell them) 'Pfft. I'm a girl. Hobbies don't make you into a boy.'

I really can't believe how we've got here. I was born in the late 70s and remember in my childhood the focus was on breaking down regressive sex based stereotypes. I went to an all girls school where I told I could be whatever I wanted. My sex did not define what I could do.

Then I had my children in the early 2000's and the focus for all my friends having children at the same time, was a progression of that messaging - there were no "boys" or "girls" toys. Our children played with whatever interested them. We wanted to get rid of gender messaging through boys clothes (blue) or girls clothes (pink). But there was no suggestion that if my son wanted to play with a barbie for an afternoon that meant he was probably really a girl. I mean that very idea is just insane to me. He just liked playing with Barbies for a bit. Then he tried Lego. Who cares - they're just toys. He had friends who were girls and boys. In all honesty he probably got on better with girls sometimes than boys as he was not massively into boisterous play, but that didn't mean he was a girl. He's now a happy, healthy, well adjusted 21 year old young man still with friends of both sexes.

How on earth have we got to the point where people are really worrying that playing with the "wrong" gender toys, or having friends of the opposite sex means their child is going to be encouraged to change gender?? And that we have a worried mum posting that "I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case."

Of course she's going to remain a girl. She is a girl. She can't change her sex.

OP - I'm so sorry that the world has got to itself to this state that this is what you are having to worry about. Your daughter sounds wonderful and I hope you can all navigate your way safely through all this madness.

I agree it feels regressive (to me) that we spent years trying to break stereotypes - girls can play football, play with trucks, wear short hair etc and boys can do ballet, play with dolls, have long hair etc
And there's been a big drive to get women into STEM (far less so getting boys into more female lower paid jobs)
But now the pendulum seems to have swung back to stereotyping and pigeon-holing people according to what's "normal" for that gender!

Would love someone to actually define female gender without resorting to stereotypes. Impossible. Infuriating.

Most sensible & thoughtful thread I've seen on this in a long time. You're completely right & I went through a similar thing with my youngest son whose friends transed him out of kindness, not cruelty. He wore what clothes he wanted, a skirt for his uniform & did ballet (& rugby!), so to them it was obvious 🤷🏼‍♀️. He's now 15 & realised a few years ago he's just a run-of-the-mill gay. The experience he had has made him quite cynical against the entire movement.

Within your framework there does need to be acknowledgement of gender dysphoria, though, & there has to be support & care (even surgical solutions) for the vanishingly few ppl that actually suffer with it & it alone - not as a symptom or effect of another disorder.

If it helps - my son & I talked at length about learning the body he's in before making decisions (he was 10 or so). I never said 'no' or that I didn't believe him or that I did - just acknowledged his feelings.

(should add he is ND AF. A. F!)

I was in uni till 2001 and we were taught to be gender critical and that gender is a construct. I have no idea how this has regressed so much.

Is she by any chance ND? Those hobbies are extremely common in the ASD/ADHD spectrum across both genders. They have nothing to do with gender identity but more about the love for pattern recognition, learning facts, numbers or being rewarded with dopamine for doing certain tasks. Children can't really grasp the idea of gender so they may believe they're a boy because they hear people saying the things she likes are typically only for boys.

FWIW those were my exactly special interests growing up and I spent almost my entire childhood and teenage years (until age 17) dressing androgynously with a boy's haircut. It would probably raise every single alarm bell nowadays but back then gender identity wasn't a thing so nobody cared. I'm ND and I somehow have a fuzzy memory of liking masculine presenting clothes because of the "power" they had. I wanted to appear male because I wanted to be taken seriously and to project the aura of competence that boys and men are given, compared to girls. It had nothing to do with sexuality.

In the 90s, gay/lesbian was the only contentious topic, and I always knew I was straight so I didn't give it any more thought. And I basically just grew out of it. Around 17 I suddenly discovered makeup, feminine clothing etc and that was it. I've always been CIS female, very female presenting and now married with children. Never doubted my gender or sexuality aside from that phase in my teens where I liked male-orientated hobbies (which I still do).

I would personally not worry too much, and obviously don't start any treatments. Many ND children and teens go through phases where they might identify as non-binary, the opposite gender, aroace or even animals (furries) but it's more a form of rebellion or self-expression. I had lots of friends who were like that eventually 90% settled down in traditional gender roles and families.

This is incredibly insightful and well-written, thank you. Saving it for future reference. I have a 2yo daughter who obviously can't and doesn't express any kind of preference yet, but she's an active outdoorsy type who people keep describing as like a boy, irritatingly, so this post really articulates what I've been struggling to put into words. I haven't had to deal with any of this rubbish in schools and I hope I won't have to either but if the time comes, this is a great argument.

100% agree.

If my 14 year old niece had a mother like you then she wouldn’t be in the mess she is now, having been forced (by her mother and the Tavistock centre etc) to identify as a boy just because she has shown no interest in traditional girl activities, clothing and ideals (and not forgetting her autism diagnosis which has been pushed to one side in favour of going down this ridiculous route).

It’s too late for her as the damage has been done but we need a drastic turnaround before we fuck up hundreds of more lives.