To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

if we would only let them feel the feelings and support them in overcoming them, rather than do anything and everything to avoid them having the feelings in the first place.

This is a really important point

Totally agree Op. what their personalities are and what they like has nothing to do with sex or gender.

Your daughter is a girl and she can’t change that. But in no way should that stop her from being interested in whatever she likes.

My DD is a fairly girly girl but she plays sports that tend to be more male orientated.

Ah, this takes me back to the glorious 80s, with the New Romantics out-peacocking each other on Top of the Pops each week. Duran Duran wore more makeup than I ever have, but nobody, especially them, ever thought they were women!

Yes, I agree. We have medicalised something which is really a social matter. It’s all part of the over-protection of children I see now. I have been recruiting early years professionals for 25 years, and over that time there has been a distinct trend downwards in their maturity, resilience, entitlement and expectations over that time. The treatment of children as if nothing unpleasant or challenging should ever have to touch them has been part of creating this climate, and the terror of puberty which has been engendered is one serious symptom of this phenomenon. Children and teenagers are much more capable of dealing with emotions and issues than we give them credit for, if we would only let them feel the feelings and support them in overcoming them, rather than do anything and everything to avoid them having the feelings in the first place.

You are 100% correct op!

This is what I mean about gender ideology being regressive.

Why can’t a man have long hair, a handbag and lovely shoes? Why would anyone say “You can’t be a man dressing like that! You must be a woman”.

I saw a gorgeous young guy today, having lunch with his mum & granny. He had long flicky hair. He was wearing a pair black of paper-bag waisted trousers with slip-on flats. And a nice little handbag, Fendi Baguette style. He caught my eye as he had a Damian Hurley thing going on. He wasn’t a boy dressed as a girl. Or transgender. I think more men dressed like this in previous decades, or centuries even. He looked great.

I haven't rtft but as a parent this is incredibly tricky. If you believe (as any rational person would) that she is a girl but can be any kind of girl she likes then it's OK to tell her that. As a parent you have the ability to influence her as much as any outside person. Tell her you dont believe in self ID and that you believe she is a girl. But tell her when she is an adult and if she feels differently then you will support her and love her no matter what. When she is 18 she can talk to you about it. Personally i think this shouldn't even be contemplated until adulthood and its despicable to introduce to children. I do believe a tiny percentage of people genuinely need to transition and it's important that they know they are accepted, negative comments about trans people could be damaging if she is in this minority.

Nailed it & your username is beyond perfect

Just imagine all us Tom boys horrified that we would have been trans’d should we have been children today. Scary stuff.

My lines always been nothing or just for boys or girls and if it is because of genitalia then it anit for children anyway 😅. So yeah one my my girls has “boys” shoes who’s idea was it that girls can only have “granny” shoes or open topped shoes btw. She might play football then she might paint her nails.

Just let children be children.

I also don’t get this “feeling” like a man or women bs. Like I just am. It’s me I was born this way. My boobs or my hair or my make up (or lack of) don’t make me a male or female I just am one.

Controversial and I’m sure I will get some flack for this one. How can you be a trans man and be or want to be pregnant. No offence to those who are infertile but it’s the most biological womenly thing you can do.

To be fair, (and I say this from experience), it is much harder to parent an ND child in this way. Because meltdowns and self harm are very real difficulties for that child and you do have to tread a very delicate line as no one wants their child to hurt themselves in distress. But gender ideology leads to self harm in a whole other way.

@Jourl @SidewaysOtter Totally agree - this is terrifying. What on earth are they teaching in schools and how can we stop this?

This thread needs sending to Bridget Phillipson and Anneliese Dodds because I currently have no confidence that they are on top of this issue or even on the same page as the majority here.

This thread is quite cheering as it wasn’t that long ago that we’d have been knee-deep in BE KINDery by page 2.

Gender is a ridiculous concept- and as others have said the importance placed on it should be scrapped. You don't 'feel' like a girl or a boy, you don't have a 'lady brain' you are either male or female sexed, and you can wear what you want, be who you want, and pigeonholing is unnecessary. No one follows the 'ideal' of what a stereotypical man or woman is supposed to be, so stop trying- be the individual you are within the biological realty of who you are too.

Puberty is a really tough time. We need to help children realise that it's normal to feel distressed at how their bodies are changing. But that they will eventually become more comfortable with it

Yes puberty is hard . But simultaneously it's now being made out to he so traumatic that the only solution is to transition in the hope you can not appear to go through it or get drugs to stop it.

I'm not saying every kid should sail through it but we all remember how little selection of products there were. Some even remember those belt things.

Bras consisted if having a tape measure thrown at you on the shop floor.

Why, when there is more choice than ever before. A product for every occasion. More sizes than you could ever have hoped for when we went through it, Is it suddenly so traumatic ?

Terrifying kids about their bodies seems to be a massive part of the problem. There's not a man or woman in the planet who doesn't have an embarrassing penis or period story but we weren't as terrified if it all as kids today. Why ?

Unless there is a medical issue. It's unpleasant, a bit of a shock to the system etc but it should not be seen as traumatic.

I wasn't actually thinking about parents when I wrote that but that's an interesting point. @Jouri's post (at 16.22) describes how her younger sister is unable to engage in any discussion, instead hurling insults and threats - and that seems a bit par for the course.
I actually feel sympathetic to parents too scared of alienating their children to stand up and protect them from this nonsense. But they are avoiding the "tough love" aspect of parenting where you have to see past the emotional blackmail and anger directed at you and protect the child behind all that from making dreadful self harming decisions. (Easy for me to say but hard to do in the face of captured schools etc)

And that’s before we get to the parents who have secretly quite enjoyed the attention and special status having a “trans” child has brought them.

I knew one and to watch those of our mutual acquaintance flocking round her like a rainbow totem on which to display their public declarations of ally-ship and “correct think” was quite something.

Also: parents who didn’t want a gay kid but would be quite happy with a “trans” straight one.

I accept Mumsnet is not a representative cross section of society but 725 votes and only 4% of those say YABU.

Surely it has got to the point now where we can all speak out to friends and make representations to schools and bring a halt to this pernicious ideology before any more children are harmed?

She replied stating she's been taught in school that it's not unravelling but instead we are now understanding how men and women and non-binary people are not defined by their sex but their brains and that men's brains are different to women's brains and that's why majority of care jobs are done by women and men typically go for leadership roles.

@Jourl , that’s terrible. Who the fuck is teaching this and why?

The ‘50s called and wanted their attitudes back. The 1850s.

The medical profession has let children down on this issue too. Pre Cass.

They should have nipped this stuff in the bud instead of encouraging it.

I wasn't even particularly gender non conforming, but I went through puberty early and by 12 had breasts sized 30D. This caused me significant distress and I'm sure that if someone had told me that I could 'be a boy' and get rid of them, I would have considered it.

Puberty is a really tough time. We need to help children realise that it's normal to feel distressed at how their bodies are changing. But that they will eventually become more comfortable with it.

The way adults have used children in all this has been shocking.

Theres a hard truth buried in this - some parents are less ashamed and would fight harder for a child they believe is trans to have a place in this world than they are willing to fight for and recognise that their child is autistic or have gone through some awful childhood event that has caused them to hate their own bodies.

Wearing women’s clothes does not make them women. So what do they get out of wearing those clothes? Is it sexual? Is it a kink? Do they actually think they’re women? These are older men, with all the benefits of male privilege, who are role playing an identity and fetishising it.

Growing from a little girl to a woman we are all too aware of our biology and the significant impact it has on our lives - it is often painful and traumatic. They don’t take on that mantle do they? No wonder it is problematic.

How, despite our best intentions, do we as women take these pantomime dames seriously given how far removed it is from the reality of real womanhood?

Of course you are right OP.

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to be a boy or a girl. Shame on anyone who tries to teach otherwise.

There's no such thing as being 'born in the wrong body' and every child deserves to be reassured that they are perfect exactly as they are.

How society lost its way on this point I'll never fully understand.

As a teenager I would have been encouraged to transition. I wore trousers as no make up as I felt uncomfortable in my body, had male friends and liked science and didn’t know I was autistic. Now I’m completely happy I am me and a woman and can be who I want or dress how I want. Today I would have been encouraged to change my sec as I didn’t like pink and sparkly FFS