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To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

390 replies

Itsmyshadow · 10/07/2024 12:55

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

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Winterborne74 · 16/07/2024 22:08

That’s reassuring, but doesn’t seem to be the case around here yet unfortunately. Have heard elsewhere though that the current teen generation are starting to find the gender stuff cringey and maybe that is one of the ways it will resolve itself. The dynamics of younger people kicking gender into touch are very different to the kind of generational stand off we are seeing now. 🤞

OldChinaJug · 16/07/2024 21:59

What's extraordinary is this being introduced to children in schools, with no rigour whatsoever behind it.

I believe the DfE have amended their guidance on this now? Regardless, my school doesn't teach it. There is one lesson in our curriculum that mentions gender identity and its taught in a 'some people believe...' way (much like we teach religion) and everyone should be treated with respect regardless of our beliefs but absolutely none of the children buy into it as a thing.

“Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?”

This is what we teach and the childen are 100% on board with it.

Even in the lesson where we have to teach that 'some people believe' there is absolute outrage from the children that anyone would think only boys like x or only girls like y and that, if you like something stereotypically associated with the opposite sex that means you are actually the opposite sex.

Interestingly, none of the parents appear to buy into the trans nonsense either (it's not that sort of area).

So what we have is a school of 400+ children where not a single one identifies as trans and everyone is accepted as the boy/girl they are. Whatever their interests and where no one (parents, children and staff alike) believes that any child was born into the wrong body.

AInightingale · 16/07/2024 21:43

EasternStandard · 16/07/2024 20:28

Reaching young people is how you grow beliefs

Religion is a pretty good steadfast example of that

Reminds me of the Catholic Church in Ireland for most of the 20th century. In education, in social care, in hospitals, and exerting huge influence on politicians. Even banned and censored literature for many years.

TheKeatingFive · 16/07/2024 20:51

Start young enough and it will become progressively harder to teach critical thinking as opposed to blind acceptance of dogma.

This is incredibly concerning. Not just for this topic, but everything.

EasternStandard · 16/07/2024 20:28

DrBlackbird · 16/07/2024 20:12

Even at university it’s apparent that many students accept/believe what they’re taught. For example, that digitalisation of business is a necessary innovation. Start young enough and it will become progressively harder to teach critical thinking as opposed to blind acceptance of dogma. However that dogma is manifested. TRAs have cottoned on to that realisation v quickly.

Reaching young people is how you grow beliefs

Religion is a pretty good steadfast example of that

DrBlackbird · 16/07/2024 20:12

Even at university it’s apparent that many students accept/believe what they’re taught. For example, that digitalisation of business is a necessary innovation. Start young enough and it will become progressively harder to teach critical thinking as opposed to blind acceptance of dogma. However that dogma is manifested. TRAs have cottoned on to that realisation v quickly.

TheKeatingFive · 16/07/2024 14:23

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2024 12:53

That thread is chilling. So much damage being inflicted on children by all this.

What's extraordinary is this being introduced to children in schools, with no rigour whatsoever behind it.

There is no definition of what Gender Identity even means, beyond 'feelings' or relationship with gender stereotypes (which are very loose and nebulous to begin with). An assertion that everyone has a Gender Identity even when many say they don't feel this has any relevance to them.

I have seen lists of 72 and 100+ 'gender identities', presented as something we should be taking seriously, that read like the ramblings of someone off their head.

I wonder how all this slipped into the curriculum? Aren't there basic standards of sense and reason before we put things in front of kids?

bellinisurge · 16/07/2024 13:23

Your daughter was me 50 years ago. Luckily there wasn't any toxic bollocks telling me I had an identity crisis.
My loving parents (pre-war generation) while socially conservative in lots of ways were totally relaxed and encouraging of me.
Tomboys were totally normal and had been part of popular culture for nearly 100 years when I was a kid.

TinkerTiger · 16/07/2024 12:56

BettyBooper · 10/07/2024 12:59

Hi OP

I completely agree. I found this article helpful.

x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1808825717204922755

As someone from the Caribbean, I found the first part of this article really interesting. When I was in secondary school in the 90s (all girls), eating disorders and self-harming were unheard of.

Moving to the UK and speaking to peers in the same age bracket as me, it was rife! I've always suspected it was more than simply increased awareness/more treatment.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2024 12:53

That thread is chilling. So much damage being inflicted on children by all this.

SoOriginal · 16/07/2024 12:41

“Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?”

ABSOLUTELY THIS!!! 1000%

It enrages me that gender stereotypes are so often perpetuated through trans ideology. Be who you want to be and live how you want to live regardless of what reproductive parts you have.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 16/07/2024 12:27

I was waiting for the bus after work which is near a very captured university and Pride had just been on. From my admittedly limited observation, the majority of the men that I could see that were dressed as 'women' had their hair in bunches, baby doll dresses, mary Jane shoes on...

Not saying every trans woman dresses like this but it's was quite the observation.

MyNDfamily · 16/07/2024 12:08

LostTheMarble · 12/07/2024 10:35

What people (trans identifying males) are truly conflicting is not that they’re ‘identifying as a girl’, they’re wanting to live by a male idealisation of what it is to be a girl. What it is to be female and what it is to be a man’s idea of being female are chasms apart.

Yes, this is exactly what is going on. These men dress up ridiculously, they are not being female by doing that. I had a massive argument with one who said he was more of a woman than me because of his looks. I was furious. I have breast fed 4 children. My looks are not what's important. It really made me sick. 🤢

MyNDfamily · 16/07/2024 12:01

I completely agree with this. My sister is a lesbian, she gravitated to boys toys etc. she finds this sort of thing really homophobic. Boys and girls can play with whatever they like. Gender is a social construct. Biological sex is determined at conception and is not assigned by a DR no one needs to change their sex, chopping off body parts is insane. The schools should not be bringing this stuff into school. Most of these people who end up in the trans ideology groups are simply gay. It's like a sick conversion therapy. Children are not trans, they are children. I hope these dreadful hormones are banned permanently. I really disagree with it. My son is autistic and has more female type of interests. He is himself m, I don't want so nutcase telling him he is a girl!

Goodtogossip · 16/07/2024 11:41

I just don't get this whole 'gender identity' stuff. It's not like any of us wake up in the morning feeling male or female that morning. Let kids be kids. let them play with whatever toys they want, play whatever sport they enjoy & wear whatever clothes they feel comfortable in without anyone saying anything about their gender. we're all born Male or Female but we can feel anything we want & shouldn't be pressured into feeling something other than ourselves.
Be there to support your DD as you are & let her come to you with any worries or concerns she has. Encourage her to just be herself & not label herself as anything other than 'I'm ME'

Grammarnut · 16/07/2024 08:46

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic That's so sad. The miserable reason behind the inability to discuss the trans agenda is that the entire shebang is a cult. It has the hallmarks of being so. I hope that we end this nonsense so that your son can be saved from it - all we can do is fight, I guess.

BabaYagasHouse · 16/07/2024 01:51

If anyone has watched the TV series Dopesick - about the opioid crisis- i have found the parallels are quite striking.
It is so saddening to realise how easy it is to get people to accept false narratives that cause great harm.

AInightingale · 15/07/2024 23:03

Winterborne74 · 15/07/2024 12:22

At some point you have to look at outcomes. Regardless of how we got here, how can any movement which celebrates the amputation of healthy body parts, advocates for the suppression of normal puberty and normalises taking cross sex hormones be considered sane or healthy? Quite apart from the sexism, homophobia and impact on people with autism. It’s quite incredible that there are people paid to go into schools to propagate this belief.

💯. There are so many scandalous, barely-remembered fuck-ups in medicine, like the institutionalisation and shock treatment of people in the 40s and 50s, the women who used to be given brutal genital surgery for 'hysteria', and as for autism, well, words fail me - there was an era when the parents were blamed and the children taken away ('parentectomies' - sound familiar?) and given Freudian therapy, I believe - some of those so-called experts were monsters. Bettelheim in particular was a fraud with faked credentials. We should never ever forget how devastatingly wrong 'experts' can be.

SensualDecay · 15/07/2024 23:02

Germaine, is that you? 💖

ErinBell01 · 15/07/2024 22:18

DrBlackbird · 15/07/2024 14:10

@BonfireLady I am already familiar with the trans humanism ideology/ movement from the AI side of that issue. That comparison was not a stretch. Although of course possible there’s female advocates, but I’ve only read about men advancing the transhumanism project and a lot coming from the tech world and Silicon Valley.

However, the parallels with cults could seem to be hyperbole for many and my preference would have been a more gradual comparison enabling people to come to that realisation themselves. However in this attention deficit society we inhabit I suppose we all expect the first minute to grab our attention or we turn away already bored. I’ll go back and continue watching to see where it is trying to take the audience.

Unfortunately, the reality is very much that the impact of internalising a belief as a truth is most keenly felt by children and young people re gender identity and, in particular, young autistic people.

It’s so clear they are more susceptible to gender identity beliefs with a mix of feeling they don’t fit in or understand / adhere to sex based stereotypes. Tendency towards being trusting and naive of other’s agendas and being slow to see risk. An innate desire to be special and attraction to social justice issues of which our most recent is trans rights and pronouns. Such traits might be strengths in other situations but are disastrously combined with quite rigid black and white thinking and often reflexive stubbornness in the case of GI. So once ‘taught’ to accept this belief as truth, these young people find it very difficult to amend or recalibrate their thinking.

The more I think about it, the angrier I become that such vulnerable children, teens and young adults have been exploited in this way.

The characteristics of a cult are:

Target vulnerable people looking for acceptance who seem easy to influence
Convince members this is the way to be happy
Authoritarian practices making members dependent on & obedient to the group
Zero tolerance for criticism or questions (no debate)
Plant unreasonable fears about the outside world - eg being persecuted.
Former followers are always wrong to leave (detransitioners)
Psychological manipulation can lead to dangerous decisions (drugs, surgery)
Cut members off from family & friends, non-cult members viewed with suspicion
Followers feel they're never good enough ("don't pass")

There are other things too but I thought these were the most apt. I think the main difference is that there isn't one charismatic leader, but a lot of online influencers and celebrity allies.

Grammarnut · 15/07/2024 17:26

User7842462 · 10/07/2024 13:23

Is she by any chance ND? Those hobbies are extremely common in the ASD/ADHD spectrum across both genders. They have nothing to do with gender identity but more about the love for pattern recognition, learning facts, numbers or being rewarded with dopamine for doing certain tasks. Children can't really grasp the idea of gender so they may believe they're a boy because they hear people saying the things she likes are typically only for boys.

FWIW those were my exactly special interests growing up and I spent almost my entire childhood and teenage years (until age 17) dressing androgynously with a boy's haircut. It would probably raise every single alarm bell nowadays but back then gender identity wasn't a thing so nobody cared. I'm ND and I somehow have a fuzzy memory of liking masculine presenting clothes because of the "power" they had. I wanted to appear male because I wanted to be taken seriously and to project the aura of competence that boys and men are given, compared to girls. It had nothing to do with sexuality.

In the 90s, gay/lesbian was the only contentious topic, and I always knew I was straight so I didn't give it any more thought. And I basically just grew out of it. Around 17 I suddenly discovered makeup, feminine clothing etc and that was it. I've always been CIS female, very female presenting and now married with children. Never doubted my gender or sexuality aside from that phase in my teens where I liked male-orientated hobbies (which I still do).

I would personally not worry too much, and obviously don't start any treatments. Many ND children and teens go through phases where they might identify as non-binary, the opposite gender, aroace or even animals (furries) but it's more a form of rebellion or self-expression. I had lots of friends who were like that eventually 90% settled down in traditional gender roles and families.

She's a typical girl who likes sporty stuff and dislikes the restrictions of skirts. This is perfectly normal behaviour. And I do hope that most people don't settle down and conform to gender roles. We did our best to get rid of those.

DrBlackbird · 15/07/2024 14:10

@BonfireLady I am already familiar with the trans humanism ideology/ movement from the AI side of that issue. That comparison was not a stretch. Although of course possible there’s female advocates, but I’ve only read about men advancing the transhumanism project and a lot coming from the tech world and Silicon Valley.

However, the parallels with cults could seem to be hyperbole for many and my preference would have been a more gradual comparison enabling people to come to that realisation themselves. However in this attention deficit society we inhabit I suppose we all expect the first minute to grab our attention or we turn away already bored. I’ll go back and continue watching to see where it is trying to take the audience.

Unfortunately, the reality is very much that the impact of internalising a belief as a truth is most keenly felt by children and young people re gender identity and, in particular, young autistic people.

It’s so clear they are more susceptible to gender identity beliefs with a mix of feeling they don’t fit in or understand / adhere to sex based stereotypes. Tendency towards being trusting and naive of other’s agendas and being slow to see risk. An innate desire to be special and attraction to social justice issues of which our most recent is trans rights and pronouns. Such traits might be strengths in other situations but are disastrously combined with quite rigid black and white thinking and often reflexive stubbornness in the case of GI. So once ‘taught’ to accept this belief as truth, these young people find it very difficult to amend or recalibrate their thinking.

The more I think about it, the angrier I become that such vulnerable children, teens and young adults have been exploited in this way.

Winterborne74 · 15/07/2024 12:22

At some point you have to look at outcomes. Regardless of how we got here, how can any movement which celebrates the amputation of healthy body parts, advocates for the suppression of normal puberty and normalises taking cross sex hormones be considered sane or healthy? Quite apart from the sexism, homophobia and impact on people with autism. It’s quite incredible that there are people paid to go into schools to propagate this belief.

BonfireLady · 15/07/2024 12:03

EatTheGnome · 15/07/2024 11:52

In answer to your questions:

  • if is a valid amendment from when.
  • the Cass Model.

👍👍

@DrBlackbird I felt the same watching it, but got to the end. Some people will undoubtedly brush it off as conspiracy theory but I would urge everyone to watch it and make up their own minds. It's an exploration of the power of belief. It starts off sounding a bit out there (for anyone who hasn't stumbled upon transhumanism) but even from the beginning, with celebrities like Whoopi Goldberg and Morgan Freeman implicitly endorsing the "science" behind it all, it shows how deep the belief can go. Regardless of whether someone is fully in to the whole thing (transhumanism) or just wants to be kind to (transwo)men who identify as women, the impact of internalising a belief as a truth is most keenly felt by children and young people re gender identity.