Why do a lot of men seem to think it's 1954 not 2024?

Looking at us superficially you would probably say I do all housework and child care . DH does all the gardening and DIY . Reality is he’s always busy and we don’t pay for anything to be done for us . Not sure I know any couples where the DH does nothing .

Your daughter sleeps with you and you assume your husband likes that? So you got him to get you pregnant and now he can do one.Nice.

Speak for yourself. I’ve never wanted to be “provided for” in my life.

Yes ok.But not all.men can provide or be financially secure.He might have had other good qualities.But women still want to be provided for and have more kids than needed cos they love the hormones.Women also think men can't parent as well as them...the wonderful mums...and it ain't true

I’m going to offend many people here - but I also think us females put up with it due to some distorted internalised misogyny / sexist based roles ingrained in us. Women are each others worst critics and motherhood often magnifies this.

After having my own children, I believe it’s also easy to push dad out of the picture inadvertently as you get in a routine with the children and often forget he’s there lol. It’s worth carving out time just between dad and child, such as bath time, story time etc so you can get a break and he’s a carer too not just the fun one. I personally found it hard to let go and just rest when Dad took over and I can imagine a lot of other women do deep down too. For some reason we put unrealistic expectations on ourselves which often start in maternity leave - how many women feel lazy being sat breast feeding? Dads often don’t get these criticisms thrown at them, they’re praised for simply showing up.

A lot of men show the red flags you speak of prior to having children so it’s also up to us as women to procreate with men we believe will be good dads and partners. Before anyone starts - abusive men of course usually wait for women to be pregnant, we’re talking about lazy/mild sexists not abusers.

Does she want to retire...really?

And God knows how awful.it would to be single!! It is 1954!!!

Not read everything here but yesterday I overheard a mother complaining to her son in his early twenties. She said something like, " She never even lifts a finger to do the washing up - and she's female!!"
I wanted to give her a good shake. Is it any wonder men grow up as they do when women like this still perpetuate such shit.

I think it’s a combination of laziness and a completely different mindset when it comes to domestic matters. It’s all caring and domestic matters, not just kids. When it comes to our elderly mother, I’m doing the “wife” work of dealing with the doctors and carers and doing a 200 mile round trip visiting every week and doing her shopping and laundry and house maintenance and generally trying to make her life comfortable. DB swans in every six months and says “just tell me what I need to do” and then fails to do it. Sorry, I’m being unfair, he painted mums garage door last year. I could say mum is reaping the reward of treating him like a little prince when we were growing up, but she isn’t - I am. Thanks mum, I’ve got the “benefit” of your philosophy twice now, once as a teenager and once as a middle aged woman.

Thankfully I do have a proper partnership with DH. It helps that I moved into his house rather than the other way around so he already had cleaning routines etc. But even so he just doesn’t “see” some things, eg before I moved in the house was always clean except the toilet was brown below the water line. He claims not to smell when the cats litter tray needs scooping. So I’ve had to learn to not “see” some things myself. It’s quite liberating actually, but then we don’t have kids at home so there’s no one but us to ignore the dust and cobwebs.

I think many women who have inequitable marriages (where women bear the brunt) are aware that if if they raised the issue, argued, requested/demanded change, that it would not happen. So then the option becomes stay and this is it, or leave the marriage. I think it becomes that black and white.

Yep I’ve seen this so much. When my kids were in nursery I was chatting to one of the mums. Her son had been down with a vomiting bug. She was 8 months pregnant with her third child. It turned out her husband had never ever got up to his children. They both worked the exact same hours and my mind was blown. I find it very rare to see this actually equitable split.

I’ve recently been made aware of a few families (rural) where it is like this. I honestly couldn’t believe people like this still exist in Western Europe.

I’m from Scandinavia and even in my gran’s generation it wasn’t like this. She’d go to work (as would he) but then if he got home first he would do the chores. Granted, maybe there were ‘boy jobs’ and ‘girl jobs’ a la Theresa May.

Interestingly I attended a talk by a therapists recently who said some women seem to push for that model - doing everything at home so that they could stay at home with the kids/ get partner on board to have more kids. That then becomes a norm in the household and then they question why they are doing everything.

I’m not sure I agree with this assessment but it was interesting to hear that POV.

I think DH and I have stereotypical gender based jobs for the most part. He is a farmer and some times of year is flat out so I expect nothing from him house wise.

But he does the outside work like lawns, power hosing, cutting hedges.

I do the inside work which I do think it a lot more continuous, weekly shop, meal plan, cook all meals, he is pretty good with DS since I weaned him DH puts him to bed every evening.

His mother stopped working when she got married. I didn't I bring in more money - on paper anyway. The farm is building an asset (which isn't mine!)

@BestZebbie 100% accurate

The way it takes it’s toll eventually is a sexless partnership with no romance at all. How can you summons the energy or the feelings for a person who lets you take on so much while they just sit about?

It's not how they are brought up, my DH's father has always done 50% of the home stuff.
DH was great until we had kids, then it became a slippery slope, he was earning more, his career required frequent locations. As someone points out it's all well and good refusing to do his laundry/cooking etc, but when it comes to kids you can't see them neglected or let them grow up in a shithole. Children trap you and one of ours had health issues which meant the school was constantly phoning for us to pick up. Neither of our employers would stand for it, so something had to give and it was my job.

I'm not sure "1950s" is the most accurate way to describe men who don't pull their weight - in the 1950s labour was strongly gendered, but it was also culturally normal for men to spend a lot of their time at home physically contributing to the household through things like DIY, basic woodwork etc to make items, doing their own car repairs and maintenance, fixing broken items, growing vegetables on an allotment or in the back garden and so on.

AFAICT there has been a sharp drop-off in male "handyman" type skills and it is definitely no longer a given that all men will have a tool-shed and be able to fix or make things. Some of this is societal - cars and plugs etc are designed not to be "tampered" with to a greater extent nowadays - but the whole ethos has changed.

In contrast, "women's work" has been improved by labour-saving devices but all the same jobs pretty much still need doing and are still being done by women in the majority of cases - women who might well also now be changing the lightbulbs, assembling the flatpack, gardening and taking the car to the garage.

Sorry to derail @Notsogood24, but I'm a bit concerned that you have made yourself financially dependent on someone with this attitude and you refer to him as your DP and not DH - if you're not married to him, you are hugely at risk if you ever split up.

I was shocked even 40 odd years ago to hear a father of 3 virtually boast that he’d never once changed a nappy. Mind you he was an arsehole in other ways, too.

I well remember my own DF (born 1916) changing nappies.

When I was single I got talking to a man online. He was 45, doing his first year of an undergrad degree and working part time in a bar which set of all alarms bell to me. Then when I probed him as to how he can afford to live in London on part time bar staff wages,
he threw in the fact he was still living with his ex girlfriend.

I asked him what his career goals were and he said “to be a life coach” . Another red flag re. Financial instability. And well being a “life coach”doesn’t require signing up for an expensive degree at age 45! So really why was he In university studying marketing at that age? At least if he had something about being passionate about learning or academia would’ve made more sense. But there was no real reason to delay being a life coach.

Whether his so-called ex was actually his girlfriend or not, I was amazed any woman had put /was putting up with it.

He was really vague about his previous work experience too only mentioning he had worked in gelato stores. It was like speaking to a 20 year old boy. I assumed he had no savings either so he was clearly looking for a new woman to live off. I immediately ended the conversation.

I haven't read all thr replies. But why are you asking on mumsnet why a lot of men think in a certain way? It's very round-about and cringe.

I can't say I blame them, it's a nice arrangement if you can go out to work and then have all your cooking and cleaning done for you. I'm not sure I agree with the argument that it's all down to how their mother's raised them as I can think of a few examples of brothers raised in the same house who are polar opposites in terms of how they view housework.

I do think generally there's often a big difference in standards in expectations of cleanliness between the sexes. A lot of men I've met would leave washing dishes and clothes until there's literally no clean ones left.

I don't understand how men think being so useless is in any way endearing. Or why any women with any self-respect tolerate it.
A friend of mine has a husband a bit like this. He was perfectly capable of doing housework, managing appointments, cleaning, cooking when they both lived independently. Now they're married with children (and both working), he has a tendency to let chores slide. Friend won't enable him and leaves his mess to him to clear up - so if he's supposed to be cooking and he hasn't washed up, she leaves it.
Allegedly he's not too happy about this.

There is a movement in South Korea where women are saying no - and refusing to date, have sex with or marry men as the societal differences between men and women are so deep and negatively effect women.

I think they might be on to something - I do not believe men will change their behaviour until we change ours.

As long as men can behave badly, be lazy but still have a wife, children and get their washing done, house cleaned and cooking done they will continue to behave badly as there are no consequences.

I'm rather split about this.
We decided, in the early 90s, that dh's career would take priority. I was burnt out and desperate for children (I worked in the City for 16 years, and had my own house with significant equity and other capital) he was at the start of his career and due to professional qualifications he had better long term prospects.

One thing that was set in stone was housework and ironing. He was perfectly clear that he had no intention of doing it or his share. I already had a cleaner and the cleaner remained and has been a feature ever since we were married. I do not clean and was brought up not to clean. My mother didn't and neither did my grandmother - I think that's significant. Neither have I ever lived in a home where another party drops things on the floor and expects them to be picked up. DH's mother wouldn't have tolerated that either although she is typically working class and far more traditional yet cannot cook or sew which I find extraordinary.

I didn't intend to give up work when DS1 was born but he was unwell and I did. I had seven glorious years at home but except for cleaning picked up the full domestic load whilst DH worked 70+ hours a week (think surgeon/pilot genre).

I have always shopped, cooked, done all child related stuff - DH came to parents evening if there was a problem - there was once, organised tradesmen, decorating, etc. DH couldn't give a fig if I ordered a Neff Dishwasher or a Siemens one or whether I ordered blue curtains or cream curtains. He always let me get on with it. He does the bins and the outdoor paintwork and all admin relating to France. It has helped that DH is tidy to the point of pernickety although I confess, I do pack his suitcase be it business or pleasure!

I went back to work when dd started y1, starting back at the bottom. He was fully supportive of me going back, contributed to the au-pair to facilitate it, etc. However, I still picked up the full domestic/parenting load and that's why I have worked locally for the last 20 years or so. But our contributions have been equal. I have done more at home, DH has done more at work. Because of the equal load I have never resented it. I would have if he had left the house at the same time as me and been home within half an hour of me and put his feet up but it has never been that way and overall I have had more rest/free time than him during the last 35 years. I've had far more nights out with the girls than he ever has with the lads and whilst he used to go to football on Saturday afternoons, has never been one to "go down the pub".

It has worked for us DH is decent and kind and has never questioned stuff being subcontracted or had an issue about paying his whack. He always gave me Saturday mornings off when the dc were small and I gave him.Sunday mornings. As the DC got bigger, he supported DS's sports matches and DD's concerts where he could.

Ultimately, the while family unit has reaped the rewards of his workaholism. Had he been an entitled manchild who was selfish and unfair there would have been less reaping and more leaving I imagine.