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To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?

667 replies

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 16:13

It's an interesting discussion to have, and makes you think.
Why do so many immediately go into "how dare you!" mode or "why are you being racist towards white people?!"
Instead of actually listening to what people are saying? History is whitewashed in this country, we usually learn it from a "hero" viewpoint.

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BeachParty · 09/07/2024 19:26

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 19:24

Why did they think they could just go and “take resources” when people already lived there?

Cross post, think you're trying to say what I'm essentially saying

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BlackeyedSusan · 09/07/2024 19:25

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 17:11

I agree as in black history should be taught all the time too, it shouldn't be separate.
Although I am kind of fence sitting a bit as having a black history month does raise awareness.
I sometimes follow the hashtag on Twitter during Black History month for example and have learnt things I never would have known about without it.
Eg about Juneteenth.
Yes to it being taught more in schools generally as well though.

Yes, we still need it because it's not yet integrated, which is a problem in itself.

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 19:25

TinklySnail · 09/07/2024 19:13

Balanced how?

By reading the comments and the thread, I take it to mean that schools are starting to have a more balanced look at history.
Which is great if so, it wasn't 30 years ago.
As in, not just painting the white guys as the heroes (Native Americans and "cowboys" for example just off the top of my head if you're wanting an example.)
We trampled all over their lives, so why do the "cowboys" get painted as the heroes of the day?

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Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 19:24

Hermittrismegistus · 09/07/2024 19:18

The main reason for colonisation was based on white superiority.

It really wasn't.

It was so we could take resources to make us richer.

Why did they think they could just go and “take resources” when people already lived there?

coastalhawk · 09/07/2024 19:23

Yes its an interesting and important discussion.

I was brought up in France and am constantly finding out about huge parts of french history which i was NEVER taught about - e.g its past colonies and current departments abroad. You would not believe how little I was taught about that. I didn't know even a third of the countries that France had invaded and which had played a significant part in our historic in part 100 years. I was so surprised when people spoke French in Vietnam!

Found out the other day that France made Haiti pay back the cost of its 'loss of property' - including Haitian slaves - when it got independence I 1825. Its a huuuge sum and they only paid it off recently. it's a big part of the reason Haiti is so poor

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_Independence_Debt

I'm white and none of this offends me, it's interesting and important and it's the truth. Also its my history so I feel annoyed it was hidden from me.

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 19:22

TinklySnail · 09/07/2024 19:13

Balanced how?

Consequences of the slave trade rather than getting students to draw slaves in a ship (this used to happen), consequences of the British Empire and atrocities created by the British rather than how the British introduced trains and cricket, kingdoms in Africa pre slave trade and colonisation so students can see the wealth and prestige many of these places had rather than the pictures many see of Africa now, the idea that civilisation didn’t start in Europe during the Reformation.

Hermittrismegistus · 09/07/2024 19:18

The main reason for colonisation was based on white superiority.

It really wasn't.

It was so we could take resources to make us richer.

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 19:16

Teentaxidriver · 09/07/2024 19:12

No it was for raw materials to feed the Industrial Revolution.

The Industrial Revolution started in the mid 1700s. Colonisation was well under way by that point.

Kinshipug · 09/07/2024 19:15

Ihopeithinkiknow · 09/07/2024 19:09

Lol I have been quoted in a few posts and people are just being deliberately obtuse but it is Mumsnet I suppose so I wouldn't expect anything less

Yes, well pedantry is easier than opening ones mind.

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 19:15

So true - left wing university teachers pumping out divisive theories that will promote racial discord and push people away from the political centre
So what do you suggest, that we don't talk about racism, that we don't mention colonialism unless it's through being white's lens/viewpoint in case people get offended,, in a kind of like a "look at what you made us do?"
Why can't we look at it through both sides?

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TinklySnail · 09/07/2024 19:13

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 18:43

The responses on here just reinforce the point the OP is trying to make. We are only just starting to teach History in schools in a more balanced way.

Balanced how?

Teentaxidriver · 09/07/2024 19:12

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 19:09

The main reason for colonisation was based on white superiority. We are sweeping the reality under the carpet by saying “but the Irish were persecuted too”. Yes they were. However, the main reason for the colonisation of places like India, North America, Australia, parts of Africa, places in the Caribbean was white superiority. The indigenous people were sub-humans to the colonists (the white British) and the land needed to be civilised. This narrative of the British saviour has been taught in schools until the last 5-8 years.

It is reductive to say “but white Irish people were also targeted” or “other skin colours have created atrocities”. Yes they have but that once again skirts over the issues created by white superiority over the centuries that we still see today.

No it was for raw materials to feed the Industrial Revolution.

Teentaxidriver · 09/07/2024 19:11

Mummy2024 · 09/07/2024 18:47

Sooo did they do it because they were white? Or because they were a bad person? Are we responsible for the actions of a person dead hundreds of years? It's racist like it or not and I actually feel it needs to be made just as illegal as it is do something like this to a person of colour.

All this white shaming is doing extensive damage to this country we will lucky if we escape a right wing, racist government at the next election and reading things like this shows me why it's happening.

Edited

So true - left wing university teachers pumping out divisive theories that will promote racial discord and push people away from the political centre. White behaviour, white privilege, etc, what do these ideas add to the debate? Nothing. Labels that reduce people to the colour of their skin as a homogenous lump. Sadly there is big money in stirring up racial hatred nowadays - research grants, lobbyists, charity grants, EDI advisors, EDI trainers, etc etc. I think Reform will replace the Conservatives as the official opposition at the next election because of stuff like this.

TempestTost · 09/07/2024 19:10

What the fuck is "white behaviour"?

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 19:09

cupcaske123 · 09/07/2024 17:11

Yet the nature of colonisation meant that many people were oppressed and dehumanised irrespective of skin colour, for example the Irish

The main reason for colonisation was based on white superiority. We are sweeping the reality under the carpet by saying “but the Irish were persecuted too”. Yes they were. However, the main reason for the colonisation of places like India, North America, Australia, parts of Africa, places in the Caribbean was white superiority. The indigenous people were sub-humans to the colonists (the white British) and the land needed to be civilised. This narrative of the British saviour has been taught in schools until the last 5-8 years.

It is reductive to say “but white Irish people were also targeted” or “other skin colours have created atrocities”. Yes they have but that once again skirts over the issues created by white superiority over the centuries that we still see today.

Ihopeithinkiknow · 09/07/2024 19:09

Lol I have been quoted in a few posts and people are just being deliberately obtuse but it is Mumsnet I suppose so I wouldn't expect anything less

2dogsandabudgie · 09/07/2024 19:08

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 18:36

@Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong

I'm white and Irish. Technically as 'white' as is possible. I'm not going to explain our history here, nor do I expect anyone to apologise for their forefathers actions. I have never experienced racism but my father did as a young man

I guess I mean White English mentality (of some, not all!) to clarify
I say this as white English myself

What is this "white English mentality" that you speak of? Is there a white Scottish mentality? What about the Welsh?

Kinshipug · 09/07/2024 19:00

Totallymessed · 09/07/2024 18:53

It's hard to have a discussion where 1. You haven't actually said what "white behaviour" is, and 2. You haven't explained why "white behaviour" is in a different category to "black behaviour" or "Asian behaviour", other that just saying it's obviously different.

Maybe if you could be clear about what you actually mean people might be able to have a discussion about it.

And now you're reducing it to just white English? I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about, I'm not pretending not to understand.

Why does "white behavior" have to narrowed down to a single descriptor? The same discussion can be had which ever particular type of "white" you fancy at that moment.
We have "black history month" - do we have to pick in advance which black people we want it to be about this time?

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 18:59

ChuckinDaaahn · 09/07/2024 18:56

I’m white and honestly find it pathetic how so many white people go into defensive mode when talking about structural racism. It’s like the NAMALT brigade when you’re talking about patriarchy.

For fuck sake, people, nobody is saying YOU are a blue eyed devil responsible for all mankind’s evil. But if you can’t constructively critique these things, how can things ever change for the better?

Edited

It’s like the NAMALT brigade when you’re talking about patriarchy

Exactly this.
Which is why I felt the need to go Not all! in some of my previous posts
NAWPALT (not all white people are like that)
Should go without saying, but some people are taking it so personally!

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Champagnesocialismo · 09/07/2024 18:59

Totallymessed · 09/07/2024 18:53

It's hard to have a discussion where 1. You haven't actually said what "white behaviour" is, and 2. You haven't explained why "white behaviour" is in a different category to "black behaviour" or "Asian behaviour", other that just saying it's obviously different.

Maybe if you could be clear about what you actually mean people might be able to have a discussion about it.

And now you're reducing it to just white English? I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about, I'm not pretending not to understand.

White English wouldn’t even cover some people who did very well out of colonialism and came from these islands. People talk about ignorance but they too are ignorant of who made money. It was not just a lot of white English people. It would not have worked if it was.

ATenShun · 09/07/2024 18:58

Chocolatl1 · 09/07/2024 18:47

In my experience it really doesn't. My (admittedly) state school spent Years 7-9 covering World War history- which centred - quite understandably - on English British history. Irish and Commonwealth history was ignored and anything covering the impact of decisions made in the mid twentieth century that still have an impact on the world today was not covered. Private educated people I've met of all ages have also demonstrated a lack of knowledge of and the importance of the Comnonwealth to Britain in this current day. Which is quite shocking if you think about how impactful the last few centuries have been.

Fellow state school attendee. Although a fair length of time since I was at School, but from memory I think we covered little bits on the Romans, WW1/2, Industrial Revolution, Boudicea and the Commonwealth.

I suspect WW1 and WW2 get so much coverage in education is that the holocaust is a complusory part of state education, and obviously ties into the wars.

Again from memory, more recent commonwealth and the effects it was having on current times was taught as modern studies.

godlikeAI · 09/07/2024 18:58

SallyWD · 09/07/2024 18:52

I don't know. I think for several centuries white people had the means to colonise other countries and enslave people. They were therefore in a position of power for a long time. White people were particularly successful at building empires.
As a naive teenager I used to think white people = bad, black people =good. However the more I learn about history the more I see that people of all colours and races have opressed and enslaved others. OP - perhaps you're not aware that black and Asian people have also enslaved others. There have been some dreadful atrocities perpetrated by non-Whites.
I also don't think we (the British) shy away from the shameful things we did in the past. I know quite a lot about Britain's wrongdoings from school, from British TV documentaries and books, from news articles. It's not hidden - these things from our past are openly examined and discussed.
Some people will always be defensive if you start making statements about "white people" but most people I know acknowledge our history - the good and the bad.

A great many people do acknowledge the good and bad, absolutely true

however, many don’t and articles like this one shed a worrying light on what that means

amp.theguardian.com/books/article/2024/jun/08/imperial-nostalgia-has-become-so-extreme-sathnam-sanghera-on-the-conflict-surrounding-colonial-history

MarieAntoinetteQueenOfFrance · 09/07/2024 18:57

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 18:43

The responses on here just reinforce the point the OP is trying to make. We are only just starting to teach History in schools in a more balanced way.

I'd like to know what part is taught in a balanced way.

My DC older teenagers one is at uni one y10 both felt ostracised by the history teaching due to their German/ Austrian heritage....

ChuckinDaaahn · 09/07/2024 18:56

I’m white and honestly find it pathetic how so many white people go into defensive mode when talking about structural racism. It’s like the NAMALT brigade when you’re talking about patriarchy.

For fuck sake, people, nobody is saying YOU are a blue eyed devil responsible for all mankind’s evil. But if you can’t constructively critique these things, how can things ever change for the better?

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 18:56

(As an aside, just noticed the poll says 75 % - 26% 😕😂)
How does that work then lol, MN, can you even Maths.... 😁

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