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To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?

667 replies

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 16:13

It's an interesting discussion to have, and makes you think.
Why do so many immediately go into "how dare you!" mode or "why are you being racist towards white people?!"
Instead of actually listening to what people are saying? History is whitewashed in this country, we usually learn it from a "hero" viewpoint.

OP posts:
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9
ASongOfRiceAndPeas · 10/07/2024 11:44

TempestTost · 10/07/2024 11:32

The main reason for going to Africa for slaves at that point is because they had large slave markets that could be accessed by ship. There weren't any others, at that point, easily accessible to ships heading to the Americas.

And also for the physical strength of Africans (which they used to portray them as ‘animalistic’ and ‘savages’)

TempestTost · 10/07/2024 11:43

Kinshipug · 10/07/2024 11:31

Actually no. If you go to many countries the literature, media and curricula will largely be white British (or French etc). A direct result of colonization.

I think you are over-stating that quite a lot. Some former colonies do still have a more mixed population which is reflected in their society, but quite a lot haven't, and also many have put huge emphasis on having local media and government resources and such.

Film and television do have an international element, or really it's often an American spin, and there are some places that have been less able to produce their own film industry, or textbook industry. But I am hard-pressed to think of a Commonwealth country where there hasn't been a significant emphasis on local representation and production.

And then - many countries and most people were never colonized by Europe.

Panama2 · 10/07/2024 11:42

Isn't it the rich and powerful who the perpetrators? The average person of any race would have no influence back then. I am pretty sure my ancestors would have had no say in the slave trade, the colonisation of the Americas or even the clearances in Scotland being pushed from pillar to post themselves.

TempestTost · 10/07/2024 11:32

tamade · 10/07/2024 10:20

OK let's discuss that.
I suppose that Europeans took black slaves from Africa because their technological advantages meant they could and their morals allowed it. But on the other side of the continent brown people were also doing it, because their technological advantages meant they could and their morals allowed it.
Maybe it is what humans did to each other given half the chance? The Aztecs were at it in South America etc etc

The main reason for going to Africa for slaves at that point is because they had large slave markets that could be accessed by ship. There weren't any others, at that point, easily accessible to ships heading to the Americas.

Kinshipug · 10/07/2024 11:31

TempestTost · 10/07/2024 11:25

Some parts of it are fairly diverse now, but even in England, the vast majority of people are white. People who live in certain large cities sometimes see to have a very parochial attitude and forget they are in a bit of a bubble.

Statistically, most books are going to be written by white people, and lots will feature white people. If you are studying history before WWII, chances are it will be about white people.

This is no different than any other country, btw. If you go to Japan, or Nigeria, you will find that books and advertisements and such largely reflect the people who live there. And much of their history studies in schools will too.

Actually no. If you go to many countries the literature, media and curricula will largely be white British (or French etc). A direct result of colonization.

TempestTost · 10/07/2024 11:25

Matronic6 · 10/07/2024 06:56

I think this is the kind of attitude OP is referring to.

We actually live in quite a diverse country. There are a range of ethnicities and cultures in the country and our classrooms. These children deserve to see themselves in the syllabus and their learning. And all children benefit from hearing a range of voices and perspectives.

Representation matters.

Some parts of it are fairly diverse now, but even in England, the vast majority of people are white. People who live in certain large cities sometimes see to have a very parochial attitude and forget they are in a bit of a bubble.

Statistically, most books are going to be written by white people, and lots will feature white people. If you are studying history before WWII, chances are it will be about white people.

This is no different than any other country, btw. If you go to Japan, or Nigeria, you will find that books and advertisements and such largely reflect the people who live there. And much of their history studies in schools will too.

namechangefandango · 10/07/2024 11:17

My heritage is slavery. I am certain we didn’t learn anything about this in my predominantly white school.
the only time my kids learned anything remotely unbiased towards whites was in primary school when the Black Lives Matter movement was in full swing.
their school now is a racist institution and an academy with no accountability

cupcaske123 · 10/07/2024 11:13

That is the simplistic version, and luckily people do work to implement basic human rights around the globe. But as a consumer you have to be extremely conscientous to not inadvertedly contribute to abuse and exploitation of people in other countries.

You just have to look at Amazon, where the board campaigned so effectively that their workers voted against themselves being allowed to form a union (USA).*

Colonisation never stopped, except now global corporations are colonisers. We also directly benefit from the labour of people with no human rights and child labour. We use products from trafficked and oppressed people Powerful countries continue to bomb less powerful countries. They also finance genocide and overthrow democratically elected leaders. Our heads of State and politicians continue to meet leaders carrying out atrocious against their people.

It doesn't seem as though we've learnt much at all.

BeachParty · 10/07/2024 10:42

Matronic6 · 10/07/2024 06:56

I think this is the kind of attitude OP is referring to.

We actually live in quite a diverse country. There are a range of ethnicities and cultures in the country and our classrooms. These children deserve to see themselves in the syllabus and their learning. And all children benefit from hearing a range of voices and perspectives.

Representation matters.

Yes, this.

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 10/07/2024 10:33

Matronic6 · 10/07/2024 10:00

And? What's your point?

That was in response to someone saying we're a diverse and multicultural country, and other posters use of the term black history etc. In Scotland we're almost all white, apart from a mainly brown minority population.

turbonerd · 10/07/2024 10:28

Mummy2024 · 09/07/2024 23:44

I understand all your points and I thankyou for them. I now understand you mean the history of the common wealth, which nations are in it and how they got there and your absolutely right, I did history and that wasn't delved into.

I know we've benefited greatly over the years but that only shames me more.... I'd rather live in a poorer country and than live from blood stained wealth. Stolen jewels and all the rest of the despicable things this country has done and still was doing until fairly recently.

There are many successful countries who didn't enslave people and strip wealth to get rich. I'm pretty sure we could have gotten rich some otherway and honestly if the option was in my hand to be rich from the blood of others or risk being a poorer country, I know what I would choose.

I understand your sentiment, but I disagree still.
It is objectively better to be a citizen in a rich country, and there are no countries that are rich without some sort of shady business Deals with poorer countries.
And these are often the countries where the majority population live in appalling poverty, and a sliver of the elite lives like the ruthless masters they are. And they control the trade with «us» and «we» turn a blind eye because it benefits us greatly.

That is the simplistic version, and luckily people do work to implement basic human rights around the globe. But as a consumer you have to be extremely conscientous to not inadvertedly contribute to abuse and exploitation of people in other countries.

You just have to look at Amazon, where the board campaigned so effectively that their workers voted against themselves being allowed to form a union (USA).

tamade · 10/07/2024 10:20

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 16:30

I was hoping for a discussion about stuff like how why can't we discuss how people who are white have oppressed/oppress people who are black in the past (an example of white behaviour someone asked for) but if people cant even understand that "black and white behaviour" just isn't comparable it seemed rather fruitless.
Hence the bloody hell response.

OK let's discuss that.
I suppose that Europeans took black slaves from Africa because their technological advantages meant they could and their morals allowed it. But on the other side of the continent brown people were also doing it, because their technological advantages meant they could and their morals allowed it.
Maybe it is what humans did to each other given half the chance? The Aztecs were at it in South America etc etc

Matronic6 · 10/07/2024 10:00

MorrisZapp · 10/07/2024 09:17

I live in Scotland which is 95% white. Of the 5% which is not white, the majority are brown, not black.

And? What's your point?

DaffodilDora · 10/07/2024 10:00

Hereforthesandwiches · 10/07/2024 09:34

White people alive now bear no responsibility for what other white people might have done centuries ago. You can't expect people to be apologetic for things they haven't done. I think the treatment of native Americans was repulsive. I wasn't there though. I didn't do it, so I don't feel I have to apologise as a Caucasian person.

I don't think anyone is expecting you to feel personally responsible or to apologise though?

Simply know it happened, acknowledge it happened and, this is the bit that people sometimes don't get, understand that past colonisation still affects people living in those countries today.

Depending on where they are or other circumstances, they are affected to a greater or lesser extent obviously, but it's true even in countries like Ireland where the inhabitants are no longer poor.

Chocolatl1 · 10/07/2024 09:45

Hedgeoffressian · 10/07/2024 00:10

If you feel so ashamed then please do us all a favour and bore off to some other country. There are plenty of other people willing to take your place 😊

Many comments on this thread, such at this, are proving your point @BeachParty . What's the point in trying to educate, share another point of view, and reason, with attitudes like this.

Hereforthesandwiches · 10/07/2024 09:34

White people alive now bear no responsibility for what other white people might have done centuries ago. You can't expect people to be apologetic for things they haven't done. I think the treatment of native Americans was repulsive. I wasn't there though. I didn't do it, so I don't feel I have to apologise as a Caucasian person.

turbonerd · 10/07/2024 09:33

Combattingthemoaners · 09/07/2024 19:09

The main reason for colonisation was based on white superiority. We are sweeping the reality under the carpet by saying “but the Irish were persecuted too”. Yes they were. However, the main reason for the colonisation of places like India, North America, Australia, parts of Africa, places in the Caribbean was white superiority. The indigenous people were sub-humans to the colonists (the white British) and the land needed to be civilised. This narrative of the British saviour has been taught in schools until the last 5-8 years.

It is reductive to say “but white Irish people were also targeted” or “other skin colours have created atrocities”. Yes they have but that once again skirts over the issues created by white superiority over the centuries that we still see today.

It wasn’t necessarily so to start with, but it definitely became a part of the story the Empire told to justify its continued existence.

Shall dig if I have time, but the concept of racism as in Black vs White was apparently created in the US after a near successful uprising (I forget where!) where the Black slaves and indentured Irish had bandes together to overthrow the masters. To avoid this in future the poor where segregated according to colour and the White where taught in mass about their superiority. Mucho effective, to let the bottom rung of society have someone else to look down on.
Divide and conquer.

Prior to that slavery was something anyone could experience - it was extremely popular well into the early Middle Age in Europe, where it experienced a lull because of Christianity and that you shouldn’t enslave your brother in Christ. Could have him as serf though…

The western Vikings favoured Irish slaves, but weren’t difficult about enslaving anyone else either. The Bysantine Empire had slaves from all over, but like with the eastern Vikings the Slavs from around the Black Sea were in a precarious situation - they had been for a long time as waves of invaders and traders were drawn to this area.

The trans-Atlantic slave trade was in one way a matter of simplicity for the White European traders: The powerful slaving clans/tribes caught the slaves inland and brought them to the coast ready and waiting. The European traders didn’t have to bother with traipsing through the jungle and fighting to capture anyone themselves. The slaves were a ready commodity (and this bit is truly awful) often held in fairly large camps by the coast - in areas it was difficult to escape from - waiting for the next slaveship. The wait could be fairly long.

I do However agree that after a while a key factor certainly was the racist, White saviour, social Darwinism Theory that was being taught (fed) both europeans and others to perpetuate and justify the colonial powers.

Someone brought up the genocide in Rwanda as an example - I recommend reading up about what the german and belgian colonisers did in Rwanda. How they pitted tribes/peoples against eachother and sowed the seeds of extreme mistrust.

Having said that; divide and conquer is sadly fairly easy and effective if you take existing faultlines in a population and amplify them. Of course most groups would like to tag along to the group perceived as the most powerful, even if it later is shown to be to their own disadvantage.

MorrisZapp · 10/07/2024 09:17

Matronic6 · 10/07/2024 06:56

I think this is the kind of attitude OP is referring to.

We actually live in quite a diverse country. There are a range of ethnicities and cultures in the country and our classrooms. These children deserve to see themselves in the syllabus and their learning. And all children benefit from hearing a range of voices and perspectives.

Representation matters.

I live in Scotland which is 95% white. Of the 5% which is not white, the majority are brown, not black.

BrigadierEtienneGerard · 10/07/2024 09:16

To wonder why it's so controversial to talk about white behaviour throughout history?

Possibly because most (but not all) of those who claim they want to "talk" about it do so from a pre-conceived position usually based on total ignorance of historical facts.

Whereamigoingwiththis · 10/07/2024 08:56

BeachParty · 09/07/2024 20:45

Ok, thanks for the link.
Just had a look
That doesn't change the fact that Humanities and History were two totally different subjects for me when I was taking my options aged 13?
In England?

Humanities wasn't a subject when I was at school, the options were only History or Geography, 2 of the science subjects, at least2 of computer studies, typing, home economics, art/design woodwork, metalwork drama.
RE was compulsory as was Maths,English and PE.
The percentage of pupils taking each option varied according to available resources at the time, eg only 25 percent of pupils could take computer studies

Alicewinn · 10/07/2024 08:38

Talipesmum · 10/07/2024 00:38

The “old white git” is professor Alan Rice,
Director of the UCLan Research Centre in Migration, Diaspora and Exile and Co-Director of the Institute for Black Atlantic Research. He was academic advisor to and board member of the Slave Trade Arts Memorial Project (STAMP) in Lancaster which was responsible for the commissioning and building of the first British quayside monument to the victims of the slave trade unveiled in Lancaster in October 2005. In 2007 co-curated an exhibition Trade and Empire: Remembering Slavery at the Whitworth Art Gallery in Manchester.

https://ibaruclan.com/partners/alan-rice/

I think it’s clear that he knows about the inhumane history of the slave trade, and the history and evolution behind the boys name, he describes how the name was commonly given as a generic slave / servant name, and became even more problematic and used in an even more racist way later on. He also is highlighting the contrast between the inhumane slave trading that the area was linked to, and the care with which an actual black slave boy, who died in the village, was buried - with a procession, care, and a memorial put in place which is tended to this day. This is a very early memorial to a black slave.

Reading up a bit about it, I can see that the same prof has speculated that the memorial, which was erected by the schoolteacher brother of a slave trader, may have been motivated by contemporary pressure for the abolition of slavery and by his own familial guilt concerning complicity in the slave trade.

This is interesting thankyou
You can be still be incredibly academically accomplished but emotionally removed from the subject which was what I saw. The way he deflected was shocking to me.

SharonEllis · 10/07/2024 08:34

Talipesmum · 10/07/2024 00:38

The “old white git” is professor Alan Rice,
Director of the UCLan Research Centre in Migration, Diaspora and Exile and Co-Director of the Institute for Black Atlantic Research. He was academic advisor to and board member of the Slave Trade Arts Memorial Project (STAMP) in Lancaster which was responsible for the commissioning and building of the first British quayside monument to the victims of the slave trade unveiled in Lancaster in October 2005. In 2007 co-curated an exhibition Trade and Empire: Remembering Slavery at the Whitworth Art Gallery in Manchester.

https://ibaruclan.com/partners/alan-rice/

I think it’s clear that he knows about the inhumane history of the slave trade, and the history and evolution behind the boys name, he describes how the name was commonly given as a generic slave / servant name, and became even more problematic and used in an even more racist way later on. He also is highlighting the contrast between the inhumane slave trading that the area was linked to, and the care with which an actual black slave boy, who died in the village, was buried - with a procession, care, and a memorial put in place which is tended to this day. This is a very early memorial to a black slave.

Reading up a bit about it, I can see that the same prof has speculated that the memorial, which was erected by the schoolteacher brother of a slave trader, may have been motivated by contemporary pressure for the abolition of slavery and by his own familial guilt concerning complicity in the slave trade.

Good grief. @Alicewinn seems to have got the wrong end of the stick entirely. Alan Rice is a hugely respected person for his work on slavery & Black Atlantic culture.

Triffid1 · 10/07/2024 08:25

suburburban · 09/07/2024 21:14

I thought the Boers who were Dutch settlers were involved in this as well?

Of course. The boers are the ones who stole the land as they left cape town after all.

But lots of things like pass laws etc were implemented by the British.

kirbykirby · 10/07/2024 08:02

You sound racist OP. Swap the word "white" for any other race and you wouldn't dream of posting such a question.

White people are not a monolithic group and many "white" countries like Ireland were historically poor, had no empires and their people were the victims of kidnapping and slavery (by north African Barbary slave traders) as were the people of Cornwall.

If anything history is now taught from a perspective of white people being uniquely evil, which is obviously not only distorted but offensive. It's understandable that people will reject this idea.

Kinshipug · 10/07/2024 07:13

peanutbuttertoasty · 10/07/2024 01:14

This. Everybody’s culture is sacrosanct except our own, apparently.

Commonwealth history, colonial history, transatlantic slave trade, are all "our" history. If our culture is so sacrosanct, surely we should be making an effort to understand it fully.
Do you even realise that places all over the world were an extension of Britian within living memory? How is that not "our" history?

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