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To worry that this is a major threat to our democracy?

110 replies

Worrydon · 09/07/2024 14:23

https://themuslimvote.co.uk/.

Ever since learning about the targeted campaign of threats and harassment against MP Jess Phillips, it has become clear that those harassing her, along with other similar independent MPs are being pushed into power by sectarian politics.

many of these independent MPs have gotten in purely off the back of being pro-Gaza, despite not offering any solutions to local issues. Our MPs should represent local and national interests, not exclusively one foreign agenda piece.

This website (the Muslim Vote) encourages people to put in their post code, and it then tells you who to vote for based entirely off their stance on Gaza.

This appears to be allowing religion and sectarianism to corrupt our democracy, and I worry that not enough attention is being paid to this threat.

The Muslim Vote - We are Pro-Democracy and Anti-Genocide

Muslims and all people who stand for justice agree that the current political class does not represent us. Peacefully, politically, and persistently we will vote them out.

https://themuslimvote.co.uk

OP posts:
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Wgdici52828 · 10/07/2024 10:40

TeenagersAngst · 09/07/2024 18:52

There's a reason why we have separation of Church and State. Religion has no place in politics.

We don’t have separation of church and state to any degree. The King is our head of state and the supreme governor of the Church of England. We have a constitutionally established state religion. There are 26 bishops in the House of Lords. Sittings in both Houses of Parliament commence with Christian prayers.

I don’t agree with any of this; separation of church and state would be a good thing.

It is a nonsense to suggest that it somehow threatens democracy for people to vote in line with their religious beliefs, regardless of what their religion is. People can vote for any candidate they like based on whatever reasoning they like. That is the literal essence of democracy.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/07/2024 00:09

Is that where you are with Reform as well.

Yes @Newbutoldfather.

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 09/07/2024 21:45

Zionism has been misrepresented on this thread.

Here's a brief explanation:

'Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. The vast majority of Jews around the world feel a connection or kinship with Israel, whether or not they explicitly identify as Zionists, and regardless of their opinions on the policies of the Israeli government.

While there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel over the millennia, the yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been a cornerstone of Jewish communal life since the Romans violently colonized the land, sending Jews into exile two thousand years ago. An earlier exile by the Babylonians produced perhaps the most well-known lamentation “By the rivers of Babylon, there we wept as we remembered Zion.” That connection between Jews and the land, and the hope for repatriation, is deeply embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

What is known as modern Zionism emerged in the mid-19th century in tandem with the rise of the nation-state and widespread national liberation movements across Europe. In the case of the Jews, it was also in response to a long history of intense anti-Jewish hatred, persecution, and discrimination in countries and societies across the world where Jews lived, including in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. Its advocates believed that a modern Jewish state would provide Jews with a safe haven from the bigotry and endangerment they suffered perennially as a minority culture among non-Jewish majority cultures, and ensure that Jews have the same right to nationhood and self-determination as any other people, along with the same protections that are typically afforded to other nations. Zionism was also a cultural and national renaissance movement which sought to enable the Jewish people to revive their language, Hebrew, and reestablish self-determination over their traditions, culture, religion and education.

In the late 1800s, the “father” of modern Zionism, Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, consolidated various strands of Zionist thought into an organized political movement, advocating for international recognition of an independent and sovereign Jewish state in the land of Israel.

Today, with a Jewish sovereign state a reality, Zionists believe in and support the right of the democratic State of Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland. Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Being a Zionist is distinct from supporting the policies of the government of Israel.

Zionism is a big tent movement that includes those across the spectrum from progressives, moderates and conservatives and those who are apolitical. There are Zionists who are critical of Israeli policies, just as there are Zionists who rarely voice disagreement with the Israeli government. There are diverse views among Zionists about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, about how to promote peace, whether to support a two-state solution, and about approaches to Israeli settlements. Being critical of Israeli policies is no more anti-Zionist than being critical of American policies is anti-American.

Zionism does not preclude support for Palestinian self-determination and statehood. For some Zionists, support for a two-state solution is the realization of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians alike.

There are also millions of non-Jews who consider themselves Zionists and supporters of the Jewish state, who are motivated by factors including religion, history, security or politics.'

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism

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https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism

Hatfullofwillow · 09/07/2024 20:29

Danceinthenight · 09/07/2024 18:55

Only the indigenously British should be allowed to vote

So just the Welsh then.

Hatfullofwillow · 09/07/2024 20:25

Chickenuggetsticks · 09/07/2024 18:55

Yes but we don’t have actual priests that normal people visit x number of times a week legally telling them how to actually vote. It is leveraging a personal spiritual relationship between priest and congregation for political means and allowing religious authorities to press gang captive audiences into voting the “correct” way. It’s sinister that anyone thinks that should be removed.

That's an Interesting point and something I wasn't aware of.

Grannywithnoplanny · 09/07/2024 20:23

HappierTimesAhead · 09/07/2024 20:18

I think this is a really important point. The horror of what is going in Gaza is a defining moment in world history and for humanity. Lots of people want to use their vote to highlight that and it has nothing to do with religion.

Agreed. This is not about religion, it's about the fact that nobody has done enough to address the fact that genocide that is currently going on. Horrific.

HappierTimesAhead · 09/07/2024 20:18

Floorbard · 09/07/2024 20:14

I voted for someone who is ‘pro Gaza’ because I think that genocide is bad. I am not religious.

I think this is a really important point. The horror of what is going in Gaza is a defining moment in world history and for humanity. Lots of people want to use their vote to highlight that and it has nothing to do with religion.

Floorbard · 09/07/2024 20:14

I voted for someone who is ‘pro Gaza’ because I think that genocide is bad. I am not religious.

Mummy2024 · 09/07/2024 20:14

Chickenuggetsticks · 09/07/2024 19:53

No not really, you can and should be able to campaign for whatever law changes you want. I mean there are plenty of laws people want changed, many feminists want the repeal of the GRC. It’s a democratic right to campaign for changes to law.

I just don’t like that particular one and think anyone who wants to change it is doing so for not great reasons.

I do understand why some may have felt the independent candidates backed by muslim vote were the only ones reflecting back on an issue they felt extremely concerned about though. As I said people can vote for whoever/whatever they like and the rest of us are free to criticise.

I think there's an exception to be made when democratic freedom and the very fabric of democracy is at stake though.

In religion most people are devout, if someone they consider a messenger of God tells them they must vote a certain way or go to hell, they have taken away democratic freedom and therefore take away democracy as a whole.

Newbutoldfather · 09/07/2024 20:00

@TooBigForMyBoots ,

‘Single Issue voters are everywhere. If they return enough single issue candidates, that is a message to the government of the day which they can choose to address or ignore.’

Is that where you are with Reform as well?

Ultimately these single issue candidates are just as racist (if not more so).

Do you think they will serve their Jewish constituents well?

Chickenuggetsticks · 09/07/2024 19:55

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/07/2024 19:29

Thank you. Do you know if it has been tested in court? It's just that none of the fine Christian people who voted Brexit because it was what god wanted reported their pastor.

Edited

I don’t think so, or at least not in recent times. However it may be required at some point and if no-one is threatening/planning to threaten anyone with the wrath of god then theres no harm in leaving it exactly where it is imo. Why ask for it to be repealed at all if it’s a non issue?

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/07/2024 19:55

Chocolatelabsarebest · 09/07/2024 19:47

I think encouraging people to vote a certain way according to your belief system is absolutely fine . Harrassing and intimidating people who do not share your beliefs is absolutely not ok .

That's where I am as well.

Single Issue voters are everywhere. If they return enough single issue candidates, that is a message to the government of the day which they can choose to address or ignore.

Intimidation and threats are a different matter. The police and courts need to deal with that.

Chickenuggetsticks · 09/07/2024 19:53

Mummy2024 · 09/07/2024 19:25

Well if it was more than a website informing people who didn't vote for a ceasefire and it was coercing people into voting to remove democratic freedoms, then yes it shouldn't be live.

However though, surely it should have been taken down based on the current laws in place to protect democracy if this were the case?

No not really, you can and should be able to campaign for whatever law changes you want. I mean there are plenty of laws people want changed, many feminists want the repeal of the GRC. It’s a democratic right to campaign for changes to law.

I just don’t like that particular one and think anyone who wants to change it is doing so for not great reasons.

I do understand why some may have felt the independent candidates backed by muslim vote were the only ones reflecting back on an issue they felt extremely concerned about though. As I said people can vote for whoever/whatever they like and the rest of us are free to criticise.

Chocolatelabsarebest · 09/07/2024 19:47

I think encouraging people to vote a certain way according to your belief system is absolutely fine . Harrassing and intimidating people who do not share your beliefs is absolutely not ok .

Worrydon · 09/07/2024 19:43

Also worth bearing in mind that these some of these independent MPs have expressed some pretty foul views.

OP posts:
Mummy2024 · 09/07/2024 19:41

stuckdownahole · 09/07/2024 19:27

I don't like the idea of people voting on religious lines but on this specific issue the situation in Palestine was largely caused by the Christian Zionist movement who had a faith-based conviction that to return the Jews to their ancestral holy land was what God wanted.

That movement gained influence before WWII and afterwards they had their chance to put the theory into practice. The decision to set up a state of Israel with support from the Western nations was based on a good intentions and sentiment. The inconvenient fact that there were Arabic people already living there who felt that the same land belonged to them was largely ignored. If God wills it, then everyone will get along, right?

Now a different faith-based group are using a democratic process to advocate for the descendants of those same Arabic people. I have mixed feelings about this, I think it's a legitimate stance but I also think it's a bit shit if you happen to live in the area where an independent MP has been elected because they may not care at all about their constituents. If my local Lib Dem MP ignores me when I ask for their assistance, then I will write to the office of Ed Davey. That option isn't available if your MP is a one-man band.

And the intimidation towards opposing candidates that Jess Phillips and Shabana Mahmood have disclosed should be stamped right out. We've all had a belly full of people who think they can shout down others because God is on their side.

Some of the things I've seen on the tv are disgusting though. The news was following Jewish illegal settlers chasing aid trucks attacking the driver and destroying the aid... the police were there and did absolutely nothing to stop it. They were chanting stop the aid stop the aid.

I really feel there's a genocidal intent there not just from government figures either and we are supporting that?

It's sickening honestly i can't get behind that. The ultimate argument needs to be resolved and without more blood shed by consessions on both sides.

Worrydon · 09/07/2024 19:38

I believe it is a threat because if you look at these independent MPs manifestos, they mentioned nothing except Gaza.

This means that if you are a non-Muslim living in a Muslim majority area, or a Muslim that has concerns for local life beyond just caring about Gaza, you will not have an MP to advocate for you. And this is because this web-site has guilt tripped people into voting for one particular cause, based on their religion.

And it is guilt-tripping, the website accuses some Muslims of voting for Labour and therefore preventing more Muslim independent MPs from winning seats.

OP posts:
StaunchMomma · 09/07/2024 19:33

KrisAkabusi · 09/07/2024 16:04

Why are you only objecting to the Muslim vote here? Why are you not objecting to lobbyists for Israel, Russia, Trump, big tobacco, big pharmacy, PETA, or any of the other single issue groups that do exactly the same thing?

Exactly this.

I find Reform, with Farage's blatant support of Putin, way more threatening to our way of life.

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/07/2024 19:29

Thank you. Do you know if it has been tested in court? It's just that none of the fine Christian people who voted Brexit because it was what god wanted reported their pastor.

stuckdownahole · 09/07/2024 19:27

I don't like the idea of people voting on religious lines but on this specific issue the situation in Palestine was largely caused by the Christian Zionist movement who had a faith-based conviction that to return the Jews to their ancestral holy land was what God wanted.

That movement gained influence before WWII and afterwards they had their chance to put the theory into practice. The decision to set up a state of Israel with support from the Western nations was based on a good intentions and sentiment. The inconvenient fact that there were Arabic people already living there who felt that the same land belonged to them was largely ignored. If God wills it, then everyone will get along, right?

Now a different faith-based group are using a democratic process to advocate for the descendants of those same Arabic people. I have mixed feelings about this, I think it's a legitimate stance but I also think it's a bit shit if you happen to live in the area where an independent MP has been elected because they may not care at all about their constituents. If my local Lib Dem MP ignores me when I ask for their assistance, then I will write to the office of Ed Davey. That option isn't available if your MP is a one-man band.

And the intimidation towards opposing candidates that Jess Phillips and Shabana Mahmood have disclosed should be stamped right out. We've all had a belly full of people who think they can shout down others because God is on their side.

Mummy2024 · 09/07/2024 19:25

Chickenuggetsticks · 09/07/2024 19:18

The spiritual injury bit is specifically about coercing with spiritual threats so yeah. Repealing that would logically mean it would allow priests to just that.

https://lawandreligionuk.com/2024/05/08/spiritual-influence-and-elections-an-update/

that may help.

It’s basically never used but that doesn’t mean it won’t become important at some point. And if it’s not a big deal why bother writing about it in your manifesto? Theres a reason it’s included.

Well if it was more than a website informing people who didn't vote for a ceasefire and it was coercing people into voting to remove democratic freedoms, then yes it shouldn't be live.

However though, surely it should have been taken down based on the current laws in place to protect democracy if this were the case?

Chickenuggetsticks · 09/07/2024 19:24

Champagnesocialismo · 09/07/2024 19:14

Whose manifesto?

It’s on the muslim vote page, it’s basically a manifesto. I know they aren’t a political party more a pressure group.

Doggymummar · 09/07/2024 19:22

I just check my postcode and it said vote lib dem, which I did so on my sample of one it's not exactly radical.

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