To pay less?

Your time has a value though. If you are going to spend hours on prep, admin, travel, whatever and want to earn £14 per hour you can’t just charge £14. You work out ( non billable hours+ billable hours) *14 + costs of running a business then divide by billable hours for your rate. The market then decides.

Obviously you don’t need to break this down for clients but you should be aware, as a self employed person, on the costs of what you are providing in both money and time.

Well, TBF, you might turn your back, others too, my clients I doubt it as I've been working for most of them for years and years.

But then again, I would never have those conversations with any client.

Ultimately, each week I look at all the time spent out of the house (from the moment I leave to getting back, no matter how many clients I went to in a day or where they were or how long the cleaning took), and I look at the time I spent at home doing anything in respect of my business, and I look at all my costs. Then I look at how much I charged to make sure I'm earning enough.

@Thedayb4youcame i would expect you to factor in costs such as electricity and water usage as it is at a cost to you.

Agree no one should mention it.

I would only expect to pay you travelling costs if I am asking you to travel from one place to another but I would never pay you to travel from another client to mine.

I also wouldn’t expect you to factor in time for ordering stock or doing your accounts.

I see where you’re coming from but if you were ever to mention this to clients they would turn their backs on your business.

Mmm, I had almost exactly this experience- they offered a whole house declutter, said they would stay as long as it took. When they arrived (late) they asked for areas to focus on which was a bit misleading but seemed more realistic. They did the room that I said was already done, did the kitchen really poorly and then ran out of time to do the third room because they hadn't eaten and it was a hot day. I did complain and they gave me some off but I was very very annoyed. I don't suppose yours have the initial CQ?

This is exactly why anyone who works for themselves would be a fool to themselves to get into a conversation about travel time, travel costs, and everything else. A price is quoted, and the client says yes or no.

I read a post once from someone wanting a mobile hairdresser who "doesn't charge for fuel". It eventually transpired they'd been given the number of someone who said they didn't really work in that person's area, and would charge £X extra for "fuel" to make it worth going.

The potential client wasn't at all happy about that, on the basis that she didn't see why she should pay it, which is stupid.

Even more stupid is the hairdresser for mentioning it as a separate cost, rather than just giving a price for all of it - it just opens the floodgates for discussion where none is needed.

When I cost any of my jobs, I look at all my expenses and all my time - whether that's time cleaning, time sitting in the car travelling, or time at home reordering stock, washing & drying huge piles of cloths and mop heads, or doing my accounts. I'm not a charity. The simple act of boil-washing and drying cloths costs me several pounds a week in electricity and water alone.

Personally you agreed the hourly rate and the time, even though she did less, and although not satisfied personally I’d pay and then tell her not to come back. She’s a scam artist, I would feel 7o quid is the price never to hear from her again and not enter a protracted fight, she will start hassling you, posting on social media about you, local Facebook etc, it’s not worth it.

i know it’s bad but the time to deal with the quality of the work was then and there. Not refuse to pay after. And take the fight.

!!!!

Cheeky so and so's - that is ridiculous

@Sosorryliver Im not sure we should be looking at it as the employer pays £20/hr.
We have a huge issue with pay in this country we’re most people can’t even afford to buy food.
What I earn is pittance for my role and I verbalise that all the time. In the private sector my role is on average £25/hr. The truth is I love it and it is very flexible. I am able to help a lot of people and it can be rewarding.

I honestly think it is great you earn £25/hr, to me it seems steep, purely because it is not what I am used to, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it is what you should be achieving.

@Thedayb4youcame hence why I said if that if what they can charge then fantastic. I am totally for people getting a higher rate of pay in all areas.

The only thing I’m not keen on is that this person factors in travelling time into their hourly rate of pay.

Key their car back.

Works for me 😀

Do not be cross. You did what will cause you the least amount of problems

As I have said numerous times, this is my area of expertise and really I've met some incredibly "quirky" cleaning businesses and clients over the years.

You don't need my approval, but FWIW I think you did the right thing. You can rest easy knowing that at least you did the honourable thing. These people will learn - don't give them any more head space.

Bloody hell that’s a 3 hour clean! I had a deep end of tenancy clean of a big one bed flat done to a brilliant standard for £120!

Personally I would just pay her and chalk it up to experience. It's not worth the aggravation that paying the £20-30 less they actually deserve would cause.
I used to have a cleaner, but gave up because of multiple issues. It's easier just to do a half arsed job myself for free.

Its much easier to find a cleaner in London than rurally. There’s no rental properties where I am, it’s not like you will get much of a mortgage based on self employed cleaning work.

I do think people get hung up on the cost per hour. If you work for the LA then you probably get similar pension contribution to me 27% then plus holiday pay 12% ish the cost to the employer is over £17 per hour before you’ve even looked at employer NI, sick pay, maternity pay, paternity pay, hr costs etc You might take home £12.70 an hour give or take but the average employee taking home £12.70 is probably costing the LA at least £20 per hour probably more.

I think a fairer comparison between employed and self employed rates would be cost to employer rather than take hme pay as you are, essentially, your own employer.

January. The deadline is always 31st January for a business to submit it's tax return for the previous tax year.

Thus, my accountant is currently asking me for my books for the period April 1st 2023 to March 31st 2024. But he has until January 31st 2025 to submit my tax return.

HTH.

But with respect, it's irrelevent what you think, if that's what @Sosorryliver charges and is getting for it from his / her clients, they that is clearly what it's worth.

London is notorious for having a stash of cheap labour for all sorts of jobs, and cleaning is no exception. As soon as you step into greater London, prices begin to soar. London prices for anything (high and low) are rarely a benchmark for the rest of the UK.

It may only apply to employees, but do you really, really think us self-employed types don't ever charge a lot more? Just because there's no law saying we have to be paid it doesn't mean we work for pennies!

@WWYDwiththisone you say in your OP that "I don’t know where I stand on it legally", but that's not quite true as you were given some excellent advice on that thread.

To take your situation stage by stage, you say the cleaners were late arriving. I don't dispute that, and some people might take issue with it, others might not.

However, apart from this being an annoyance to you (and I totally get that), it is not at all relevant to your complaint, in as much as you're complaining about the quantity of work they did in the time they were on site. Had they arrived on time and stayed longer, you could well be now writing your mumsnet post to say "cleaners did five hours but I'm not happy with the work they did".

So for clarity, your complaint is about what you got from them in return for 3 of their man hours, for which you have been invoiced £69.

As I said on the other thread, I have spent two decades in the cleaning industry, mostly running my own domestic cleaning service, but have also worked as a consultant to the industry, freelance, carrying out other services for other organisations, such as training, lecturing, and conflict resolution between clients and cleaning businesses.

When you booked these cleaners, it was agreed that you'd be paying by the hour. You also indicated what you wanted doing, but the fact is you knew you'd be paying for their time and not the outcome. You also said that the time they would be onsite was not capped either.

Similarly, the cleaning company has not showered itself in glory either, and they sound either very new to running a cleaning service, or else are not very efficient at it. They absolutely should have done a site visit and evaluation (either before the day of the clean or at the very, very least before they started any cleaning, and for that I put full responsibility on them.

However, you are not disputing the time spent onsite, you are disputing what you got for your money. And again as said on your other thread, without seeing the condition of the fixtures they cleaned, and knowing what chaos they had to work around, no one who wasn't there can comment accurately.

But still, it all circles back to the same thing - you agreed to pay them for their time and not for the quality of their work. They have sent you the invoice accordingly.

You have told them you don't think it is worth the money they are charging, they have responded by saying yes it is and we'll be charging a late payment fee too if you're not careful.

That last part gives you a massive insight into the type of people you are dealing with (it's incredibly crass IMO), and for the sake of your own sanity and to be able to carry on with the rest of your life, my advice was to pay it and forget all about it. Don't complain, do not review them, and do not antagonise them further. You do not need this negativity in your life.

But it was only advice after all, and you are free to ignore it, which you have. That is your absolute right. You have decided you should pay them less, but you've no idea what to pay them - and if you don't know what it was worth, how can we? You can't say "well a few hundred mumsnet users voted i was not being unreasonable based solely on what I wrote, so clearly I'm right", I mean I feel ridiculous just typing it. The onus is very much on you to prove that they didn't deliver, and once again we're back to the same point, they are charging for their time, not their quality.

They do not sound the least bit professional, but never the less they came and they worked, and now they are asking to be paid for that time.

And all of this because you think that what you got is worth about £15-20 less than they what they are asking for. Fair enough if you are absolutely dependent on that money, but you have to ask yourself if it's worth it for the on-going problems you will be facing from them, because they aren't going to take it quietly - based on all you said about them (right from the start where they told you they'd got their childcare sorted; I mean, like that's any concern of yours, it's just crass) they are not used to being professional when it suits them not to be.

@Sosorryliver I have to be honest and say I think that’s a very high hourly rate of pay. If it’s something that you can achieve then fantastic.

Im in London and cleaners average £15-20 and hour.

Im LA and earn roughly what you mention. My partner works partly self employed. Some days he may average £10 an hour and others £30 depending on the time of year, but his outgoings before tax average £1.4k a month, sometimes more.

Minimum wage only applies to employees. I assume she's self-employed (that she could bring a substitute to double up confirms that).

Tell her and if she does that you will
Be going to trading standards. They are absolute chancers. I'm sure when u mention the tax office being contacted you will
Get a barrage of abuse and then not hear again. Offer the 1.5 hours and say that will be all you're getting or take you to court. And also make sure they know you have cameras inside and outside the home. Any threats of violence or that phone the police.

Well you don’t say it to the client you include it in your hourly rate. I charged £20-25 ph depending on travel time/ mileage/ length of job. Rural so it could be a trek. It sounds high but I’m much better off working for LA at £12.70ph these days! When your self employed you have to consider all your costs/ travel time/ what you want to earn per hour/ holiday pay/ sick pay/ pension.

I’d pay and chalk it up to experience. You’ve agreed an amount in advance and they are asking for payment of that amount. Just don’t rebook.