To say a massive well done to the people of France...

Nazis started as socialists and if you care to read some history books

the irony of someone regurgitating this old trope and then pompously advising others to read some history books. Good Lord.

No the Nazis were not socialists, despite the party name, just as North Korea isn't a democracy despite the country's official name being the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Hope this helps.

Maybe you haven’t looked past the headlines. Mélenchon makes Le Pen look like a moderate. He is a far left extremist. He supported Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014 and he has been a vocal supporter of leaving NATO. He has communist ideas about the redistribution of private savings and the taxation of home ownership.

You don't need to convince me that the RN are horrendous.

@BeenThere0 No majority parliament.

Clearly I do.

Reimann in his book about the realities of nazi Germany quotes a letter from a German business owner to his counterpart in the US:

The difference between this and the Russian system is much less than you think, despite the fact that officially we are still independent businessmen.

Some businessmen have even started studying Marxist theories, so that they will have a better understanding of the present economic system.

Let’s see why a German businessman in 1930s Germany would be inclined to speak about Marxism:

1. abolition of private property (1933)
2. reorganising industry into 13 massive subgroups each directly under government control via appointed commissars
3. removal of private companies board members and replacin them with party members
4. seizing business of non-compliant citizens into state ownership
5. artificially setting prices of both consumer and wholesale goods
6. shielding farmland earmarked for Lebensraum from debt accrued during business operations (in effect exempting them from market forces and leading to the demise of the creditors)
7. production control in agriculture and price setting
8. price commissars being appointed to interfere with price setting for private transactions
9. I could go on but let’s stop here

This happened in early 1930s, as soon as they got into power.

Sources:

1. Peter Temin, ‘Soviet and Nazi Economic Planning in the 1930s’
2. Gunter Reimann ‘The Vampire Economy’

But I guess you know best.

To French speakers here: What's the best translation into French of the term "hung parliament"? (Of course it's not the literal 'parlement suspendu'!) Thanks

I won't test you on the Belgian one then. The Duckworth-Lewis method is probably simpler.

I don't believe that everyone who is voting for far right parties is doing so because they're racist. Many are people who are seeing two things (A) deteriorating living standards, and (B) high immigration, and they think that B is causing A.

High immigration, though, is a result of deteriorating living standards more than it is a cause. When people are feeling the pinch, they have smaller families. Birth rates in the UK and France are so low that immigration is being increasingly used to prop up our societies (otherwise, an increasingly small working-age population would be required to prop up an increasingly large retirement age population).

The Far Right parties, though, tend to espouse the sort of economic policies that have led to widespread poverty and poorly-distributed wealth in the first place. Reform's platform is basically modern Thatcherism, which is what pushed most of the poorer areas of the UK (now voting Reform) into poverty.

I do fear that centrism is not going to solve the underlying problems that create openings for the likes of Farage. If a left of centre government can lift the living standards of workers, that might go a long way to dampening the recent rise in Far Right politics.

Does that start with people throwing around phrases like "far right" to allude to that without saying it?

Communists and National Socialist (Fascist/Nazi) both controlled the economy, had big state policies, redistribution of state resources, command and control economies, reduced individual liberty and had death and torture camps. I don't see how you distinguish between them based on what you have said?

How do you classify Farage wanting small state low tax policies as similar to either of those? How is a smaller state with lower taxes and fewer resources going to repress people?

The whole left wing/right wing thing makes no sense.

Lots of socialists don't like immigration. Are they right wing?Communists/Socialists/Fascists (call them whatever you want) all want greater levels of state intervention and control and believe in using big state policies and higher level of taxes to deliver whatever crazy utopia they have in mind.

Your right/wing left wing labels belong in the bin.

Yes labour needs to be careful not to push people too much otherwise there will come a tipping point. Half of the voters’ needs def worth listening to.

So relieved, the French system seems really sensible in that it gives people that vital second round to look at what could lie ahead and change their minds. There will of course always be people with very right wing views. , I think governments and wider society always need to be aware of this and to work hard at minimising the conditions in which they thrive such as poverty, deprivation, and poor education. When people feel marginalised, ignored and have little hope of a better future there is a chance that they can be persuaded to support far right causes. It is no coincidence that Reform has won seats in areas with high levels of economic and social deprivation. Farage and Tice are very aware of where the wins can be found.

Yes, I agree his dictatorship was corrupt and terrible but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a populist that gained the people’s vote on at least one of the four elections. That was my point exactly - it can go bad to the left or right but that does not negate the power of populism for those who have a grievance. It is not always the disadvantaged, but often is.

So you don't think the Nazis were left wing then? Phew, because that would be really silly, especially from someone who knows lots about history.

I'm having a bit of a Labre sifre moment.

the higher you build your barricades
the taller I become.
the further you take my rights away
the faster I will run.

So, fuck you both Farage and Le Penn. Cos, something inside so strong. And your evil words cannot take this feeling away, however hard you try.

I'm in my 70s now, I never had to face the Nazis like the generation before me, but I recognise them when they come calling.

viva last france, and thank you uk.

Fully agree. The name was a cynical attempt to appeal to as many as possible, it wasn't a socialist party any more than North Korea is a 'Democratic People's Republic'.

Thank fuck for that!

It’s not going to be boring and will be far from stability.

No need to patronise me either.

If there are more A voters than B voters then unless A wins and is in power, you don’t live in a representative democracy.

It was the Soviet Union who defeated the Nazis in ww2. Compare the losses of 10.7 million soviet soldiers and 12.4 million soviet civilians in ww2 with the UK/US figures which were in the thousands, not millions.

Oh dear. Now if I were you I'd stick to the raisins and lay off the rum.

I bet the people of France are looking forward to a few years of boring compromise and relative stability. Rather like the Brits. Two good results.

It is what democracy is about. Every view should be represented. Every vote should count.