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Is modern parenting damaging to kids?

383 replies

Rainbowsponge · 07/07/2024 18:47

My friend’s husband is a professional in the area of child development and education. He’s taught at numerous schools, SEN schools and is now a researcher. He doesn’t have children, but I do, and yesterday we were talking about the seeming increase in children with anxiety, mental health issues and what he described as ‘delayed adulthood’.

He’s British but his extended family are from India, and he said visits to see them make a striking contrast between how our children are raised and how theirs are raised. He said children are sort of left to run around in packs and find their own amusement from quite a young age, and as a result they seem more mature and confident.

His theory is that we are interrupting normal development opportunities for kids brains, and therefore they’re not properly developing. He thinks we intervene too much in perfectly ordinary learning opportunities, like playground disagreements, and our quest to make sure our children never feel challenged or upset is actually making them more anxious.

He also thinks softer, more modern punishments are bewildering children and reinforcing bad behaviour, leaving them confused about right and wrong. Children read facial expressions, so seeing us look calm/unbothered rather than angry/disappointed when they’ve done something wrong is counterproductive and blocks them from naturally learning human behaviour and socialisation.

I’m not professing to be a perfect parent at all, but it was a really interesting chat and I want to discuss it further!

OP posts:
Rainbowsponge · 08/07/2024 22:43

NameChangingtonIII · 08/07/2024 20:52

How did you get your kids to entertain themselves without screens?

FTM, my DC is under 2 and will tantrum, scream etc. if we try to put them in a highchair, sometimes in car seats etc. I don't want to use screens as a crutch but not sure how to manage/stop the screaming in public.

My very nearly 5 year old has never been on a tablet or my phone. We have a no tablet rule in the house and she won’t get a phone until she’s 11, even then it will be a basic one without smartphone capabilities. When she screamed as you described as a toddler, I ignored it. I would strap her into the car seat or high chair regardless and either try a bit of distraction ‘oooh look a bird’ or she would stop once the food arrived/car started. Either way what I wanted to happen was happening.

OP posts:
WellwellwellInever · 08/07/2024 22:42

Rainbowsponge · 08/07/2024 22:36

Well I imagine it’s because children can’t have the same punishments as adults. We don’t sent them to prison, they can’t be fined or tried in court or sacked. Their brains are not developed enough at 2/3 to process delayed punishment (‘we won’t go to the park later if you carry on pushing’) and my parents always said the smack was more about giving a shock than actually hurting us - a slap on the nappy made a loud noise but didn’t harm us. Most parents smacked when I was little, I don’t feel remotely traumatised by it nor do I think violence is acceptable. I don’t smack and never have but I can understand why my parents did.

It’s not about trauma (although that can happen) it’s about a better understanding of childhood development. New research and attachment theory is now the dominant model of understanding child development and is backed up by lots of neuroscience.

You may think it’s not impacted on you but how do you know what you’d be like if you hadn’t had that experience.

You can believe it’s fine but research doesn’t back you up. You are also assuming that fear of prison or other such punishment is what stops people committing crime but that’s not necessarily the case.

Rainbowsponge · 08/07/2024 22:39

WellwellwellInever · 08/07/2024 22:03

But gentle parenting isn’t about no boundaries or never getting cross. It’s about building a strong attachment and not using fear or shame to manage behaviour but instead helping them to develop empathy and guilt so they manage their own behaviour over time.

Getting cross and saying ‘I’m feeling cross because I’ve asked you three times and you are ignoring me’ is different to angrily saying ‘you are so bloody ignorant. If you don’t listen to me I’ll…’. Both are feedback about the same thing. One builds trust and models congruent expression of emotion and emotion regulation the other ruptures the relationship and models verbal aggression and threats. If it’s followed by, ‘if you keep ignoring me and not putting your shoes on we will be late and you don’t like being late’ is different to ‘if you keep ignoring me I’m going to smack you/take screens away’.

Both are boundaries with consequences one is a natural consequence of the choice the other is a threat and use of fear to coerce.

Im not saying either is right or wrong, but one builds a trusting relationship the other uses fear or shame to manage behaviour.

Also, no parent is perfect and we all make mistakes so these are examples rather than saying it should always be like X or never be like Y.

Also ruptures to the attachment relationship happen all the time and then are naturally repaired in healthy parent/child relationships. It’s only if it’s mostly rupture and little repair that it’s harmful.

But empathy is a psychological milestone that doesn’t even start to develop until age 4-5 minimum. You can’t force a toddler to feel or understand empathy, it’s like trying to teach them maths. Gentle parenting doesn’t work because it frankly confuses children by using concepts which are far too complex for their little brains to understand. IMO it’s for the good of the parent not the child, because they can’t handle their own negative feelings around effective and age appropriate discipline. Every gentle parented child I know is deeply unhappy and you regularly see threads on here saying ‘my 3 year old is out of control, I gentle parent so why are they like this?’

OP posts:
Rainbowsponge · 08/07/2024 22:36

WellwellwellInever · 08/07/2024 22:07

It is actually physical assault to smack a child. It was the norm but it’s not now and has been made illegal in some countries. If I smacked you to try and get you to behave would that be ok? No. So why is it OK to do that to a child? I’m not judging you. I smacked my DC twice when he hurt me physically. It was an instinct because I was smacked. It’s only recently there is a clear legal line in the sand and up until then it was parental choice unless a mark was left.

Well I imagine it’s because children can’t have the same punishments as adults. We don’t sent them to prison, they can’t be fined or tried in court or sacked. Their brains are not developed enough at 2/3 to process delayed punishment (‘we won’t go to the park later if you carry on pushing’) and my parents always said the smack was more about giving a shock than actually hurting us - a slap on the nappy made a loud noise but didn’t harm us. Most parents smacked when I was little, I don’t feel remotely traumatised by it nor do I think violence is acceptable. I don’t smack and never have but I can understand why my parents did.

OP posts:
Joynajoy8 · 08/07/2024 22:33

I know this might sound silly but one thing I wonder is the impact of kids not watching soap/drama TV anymore. When we were kids/teens in the 80s and 90s we'd all be watching neighbours and home and away and learned loads from it - cried along with the deaths, witnessed marriages, break ups, single parent families, money worries, school challenges, funny situations - but we were watching and learning about relationships and dynamics and characters dealing with situations with various repercussions - all in a harmless way. I learned so much about life from Neighbours!
What equivalent is there for kids nowadays when they're watching YouTube shorts?

Rainydayinlondon · 08/07/2024 22:10

Newmum738 · 08/07/2024 10:16

Yes, parents are babying children for too long and that means they can't assess risk on their own and do stupid things. We've noticed that more than ever are rude. We had a friend over yesterday for my DS (5) and we're shocked by the lack of manners and respect. He was throwing things, not listening and had no manners. From this experience, we decided, our house, our rules. We also decided to invite other friends and stick with those who behave nicely! Our DS has dropped his manners lately and have been very clear that he needs to find where he lost them! We have used his favourite thing - desert - to get the message through. We haven't had to remove it but he knows we will so the please and thank yous are back! That points to another parenting issue of no follow through. We actually unplugged the TV for a week and put it in the hallway one time. He believed we were putting it in the bin 😂 He also had to miss the school fete once so he knows we are serious! Time out worked week too - we did it twice and now only have to mention it and he changed his behaviour 🙌🏻

Not letting him go to the school fete seems an extremely harsh punishment!!

WellwellwellInever · 08/07/2024 22:07

Glitterbomb123 · 08/07/2024 12:54

What I'm reading here is people don't seem to understand the difference between actual child abuse (beatings, nasty name calling, starving, saying things like child is useless, etc) to just parents being strict.

I don't hit my kids and never have, but I know of parents that will give a smack bum as a repercussion to their child being naughty. Or sending a child to their room for 'time out' when they just won't do as they're told - I have done that. That's not child abuse it's teaching a child to do as they're told or there will be consequences. That's life.

If you don't do as you should at work, or cause problems, you'll lose your job. If you are in a relationship and you're rude, or disrespectful, that relationship won't last.

Being strict and trying to ensure your child knows right from wrong, and there are repercussions to bad behaviour isn't child abuse, but society nowadays will have us believe it is and I think it causes too much stress on parents to try to be perfect and actually makes us more stressed and then worse parents.

I don't think toddlers having tantrums are to be punished at all, but an older child who just won't do as they're told or are deliberately doing something they know they shouldn't, or they've been told they shouldn't, should be punished imo. I'm not talking huge punishments but loss of toys/treats or time outs.

It is actually physical assault to smack a child. It was the norm but it’s not now and has been made illegal in some countries. If I smacked you to try and get you to behave would that be ok? No. So why is it OK to do that to a child? I’m not judging you. I smacked my DC twice when he hurt me physically. It was an instinct because I was smacked. It’s only recently there is a clear legal line in the sand and up until then it was parental choice unless a mark was left.

WellwellwellInever · 08/07/2024 22:03

MushMonster · 08/07/2024 07:14

I think he is right. Children need boundaries, firm ones, to learn properly. Otherwise they get anxious because they are unsure if all is going well or not.
I do show mine when I am upset, angry, tired, happy, proud... name it.
I would not let them run wild in the forest for hours on their own, but this never been told off, always calm parenting style thing, I think it is counterproductive, to be honest. Something towards the middle and, yes, let them face and sort their issues. We are meant to intervene only if things get physical/ dangerous.

But gentle parenting isn’t about no boundaries or never getting cross. It’s about building a strong attachment and not using fear or shame to manage behaviour but instead helping them to develop empathy and guilt so they manage their own behaviour over time.

Getting cross and saying ‘I’m feeling cross because I’ve asked you three times and you are ignoring me’ is different to angrily saying ‘you are so bloody ignorant. If you don’t listen to me I’ll…’. Both are feedback about the same thing. One builds trust and models congruent expression of emotion and emotion regulation the other ruptures the relationship and models verbal aggression and threats. If it’s followed by, ‘if you keep ignoring me and not putting your shoes on we will be late and you don’t like being late’ is different to ‘if you keep ignoring me I’m going to smack you/take screens away’.

Both are boundaries with consequences one is a natural consequence of the choice the other is a threat and use of fear to coerce.

Im not saying either is right or wrong, but one builds a trusting relationship the other uses fear or shame to manage behaviour.

Also, no parent is perfect and we all make mistakes so these are examples rather than saying it should always be like X or never be like Y.

Also ruptures to the attachment relationship happen all the time and then are naturally repaired in healthy parent/child relationships. It’s only if it’s mostly rupture and little repair that it’s harmful.

veritusverity · 08/07/2024 21:31

palomatoast · 07/07/2024 20:40

I frequently see mums where I live walking around holding the hands of their teenage daughters. It always surprises me as at that age I think I would have rather dropped dead. The infantilising approach to parenting is ultimately quite selfish. Your teenager is supposed to find you boring and annoying, they're supposed to want to venture out with their friends not stay at home with their mum. It's part of growing up!

One of my friends was really babied by her mum and ended up dropping out of uni in the first term as she was so homesick. She lived at home until she was 28 at which point she met her now husband. We're in our late thirties now and she still deals with quite bad anxiety which I'm sure is because she was so coddled as a child.

Or do you think it's possible she has undiagnosed SEN? Homesickness is an absolute pig, I have one very independent teen who quite honestly wouldn't be seen dead with me! And who likes to hold my hand (which gets dropped immediately if we bump into friends). I don't mollycoddle either of mine, I'm really hoping they'll both find their wings and fly, and have the adventures I had; but I'm aware they are not me, and if they want to live nearby as adults then that's their choice.
I took myself off around the world in my 20s, lots of people wouldn't go solo travelling, just as lots of people don't want to live in their parents home forever. But some do, and so long as everyone is happy with their choice, then it's not for us to judge.
Again I think anxiety has a higher genetic influence than upbringing in most cases.

Dymaxion · 08/07/2024 21:30

Ah yes that wonderful free range childhood from the past - where children were killed or seriously injured in traffic at a massive rate (12,478 in 1979 to 1,980 in 2013 - down 84 per cent) despite less traffic

I think it is worth remembering that seat belts weren't mandatory in 1979, very few children were securely restrained, maybe a lap belt if you were lucky, which was bugger all use in the event of crash !
636 children died in road related accidents in 1979 and 512 in 2013. I don't think we have much to get excited about if I am being honest. I used to cross a major road in my town on my way to school in the 70's/80's and it was easy to cross safely, plenty of big gaps in the traffic and no cars parked on the roadside. From 1975 to 1989 there was one child injured in my town due to crossing the road, one died in a car accident, one of suicide and one drowned, all tragic and preventable but not unduly unusual, unfortunately Sad

Investinmyself · 08/07/2024 20:56

The start small and build up concept seems to have gone by wayside with some parents and instead they seem to think at age x they will be ready to do that.
It’s unkind to children to not permit them any freedom and then suddenly expect them to function. It’s like running marathon before you’ve attempted a 5K.
I’m not surprised volunteer numbers are so down. The children I volunteer with are lovely but it’s extremely time consuming dealing with parents.
Some parents are very quick to complain.
We are literally having to spell out things that wouldn’t have been an issue even a few years ago. I’m sure some parents think wtf it’s bloody obvious why are they saying that but then hopefully see some of the questions we get and realise.
Some parents do not understand theirs is not the only child being cared for.
We are definitely more cautious re what we do in case parents don’t like it which creates vicious circle of less opportunities for children.

Caffeineneedednow · 08/07/2024 20:54

CelesteCunningham · 08/07/2024 20:35

It's a mixture of a genuine wish to help the very large number of students with very real mental health problems, academics with zero medical training making decisions and so erring on the side of caution, and a case where a university was found to have provided too little support to a student who died through suicide.

We have lost several of our students to suicide since I career changed to academia nearly ten years ago. Multiple colleagues have taken students to A&E and at least another has had a student in his office that he refused to allow leave until a parent arrived (contacted with the student's consent obviously) as he was so concerned.

Most students aren't helped by our caution, most need to learn that feeling anxious about an exam or stressed when deadlines overlap is very normal. But the number who need significant support is growing all the time and we have next to zero backup from our overwhelmed wellbeing services and of course the overwhelmed NHS.

This

I have had situations where I have had serious concern that students would ommit suicide.

However the problem is like the pp said regarding GPS that a large number of students think they have anxiety because they get butterflies before an exam meaning the services and support aren't there for those who desperately need it.

So to deal with it the universities are covering themselves by handing out individual learning plans to half the students because they feel anxious about an assesment. These plans give them the get out of jail free card. Ironically irrelevant of these plans those that don't attend do not do well in exams. Which seems obvious but hey ho still have to point it out to students.

InfoSecInTheCity · 08/07/2024 20:53

There is a child in my child's class who has terrible attendance, they're 10yo and they must have missed 50% of the year. The reason is anxiety and while I'm not discounting some level of anxiety, I've observed on multiple occasions this child being bought into school perfectly happy looking, has a bit of a play with their friends in the playground, then at the front door they turn to their mum and say, I don't want to today and mum says 'ok', they turn around and go home.

I accept that I can't see what has happened at home before and after, but it doesn't appear that any effort is made to ask why to try to convince them to stay, to make any alternative arrangements like starting a little earlier or later, going straight into the classroom..... just complete abdication of decision making by the parent.

NameChangingtonIII · 08/07/2024 20:52

lochmaree · 07/07/2024 19:45

really interesting thread OP. I wonder about this a lot also as my DC are 4 and 2 and I started out with 'gentle parenting' and was ok at it (I think) when I had one DC but found it much harder with two. Listened to Abigail Shriers book Bad Therapy and it's made me question everything 😂 I didn't feel very 'authentic' when I tried to follow gentle parenting, and I feel much better or more at ease now I just typically follow what our very experienced childminder does.

Generally i think we are authoritative parents, we have firm boundaries and fairly high expectations for behaviour but still lots of love and a reasonable amount of time given to reading and play. But we do expect them to entertain themselves a lot and sort their disagreements out most of the time. They get as much outdoor play as possible, and as little screen time as possible. No hand held screens at all and will avoid these for as long as possible. eldest gets a bit of tv in the evening and youngest typically has none. We expect them to do boring stuff such as long car journeys with limited screens (will use one towards the end if needs be, we are talking 200-300 miles a day so a long time!) They do have Yotos which I think are brilliant.

Yesterday met one of my eldests friends from preschool at the park, and after a while he got bored and his mum got out his iPad for him to watch at the park. it honestly put me off meeting them again outside of preschool as one child having a screen massively changes the dynamic with the others. also seen so many young kids sat in buggies with a phone/ipad, and one the other day was a little girl who can't have been older than 2, walking through home bargains watching tv on a phone.

How did you get your kids to entertain themselves without screens?

FTM, my DC is under 2 and will tantrum, scream etc. if we try to put them in a highchair, sometimes in car seats etc. I don't want to use screens as a crutch but not sure how to manage/stop the screaming in public.

Matronic6 · 08/07/2024 20:39

He's not wrong. Children are overprotected in real world but under protected online.

CelesteCunningham · 08/07/2024 20:35

fitzwilliamdarcy · 08/07/2024 20:22

once you say the word anxiety they are given free reign to not attend, not engage in small group learning, tutorials and labs.

How have universities gotten to this stage?

Don’t get me wrong - I have (actual) diagnosed mental health conditions, but the redbrick I attended didn’t treat them like a get out of jail free card for anything I didn’t like doing.

Surely all that happens is the students end up with poorer grades, and the university looks bad?

It certainly explains the calibre of the younger people my employer employees though. They’re lovely people but can’t do anything unless directed and try and avoid doing anything that’s boring or scary.

It's a mixture of a genuine wish to help the very large number of students with very real mental health problems, academics with zero medical training making decisions and so erring on the side of caution, and a case where a university was found to have provided too little support to a student who died through suicide.

We have lost several of our students to suicide since I career changed to academia nearly ten years ago. Multiple colleagues have taken students to A&E and at least another has had a student in his office that he refused to allow leave until a parent arrived (contacted with the student's consent obviously) as he was so concerned.

Most students aren't helped by our caution, most need to learn that feeling anxious about an exam or stressed when deadlines overlap is very normal. But the number who need significant support is growing all the time and we have next to zero backup from our overwhelmed wellbeing services and of course the overwhelmed NHS.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 08/07/2024 20:22

once you say the word anxiety they are given free reign to not attend, not engage in small group learning, tutorials and labs.

How have universities gotten to this stage?

Don’t get me wrong - I have (actual) diagnosed mental health conditions, but the redbrick I attended didn’t treat them like a get out of jail free card for anything I didn’t like doing.

Surely all that happens is the students end up with poorer grades, and the university looks bad?

It certainly explains the calibre of the younger people my employer employees though. They’re lovely people but can’t do anything unless directed and try and avoid doing anything that’s boring or scary.

Blinkingbonkers · 08/07/2024 19:56

I have a close relation who is a gp. They have real concerns - constantly have patients who diagnose themselves as depressed because they have some low moments….. no one seems to realise that life is not a perma carousel of fun and getting everything you want. As you say, there is no resilience in many people these days - if life’s not working out as planned there needs to be blame. Obviously they also have patients who really are and really do need help - and there is not enough provision because others who just need a hand hold demand more than they need…

Caffeineneedednow · 08/07/2024 19:40

sheroku · 08/07/2024 16:30

We're already there. Managing uni leavers at work is already an epic nightmare. The lack of autonomy is crippling.

Yep agree. I had a new grad who was working remotely go totally awol for two weeks last year. Eventually she reemerged and said she was "feeling a bit overwhelmed" and "needed some self care". I'm not kidding. It's absolutely wild.

Yep I work in higher education and they have no resilience. I actually think university does them a massive disservice as once you say the word anxiety they are given free reign to not attend, not engage in small group learning, tutorials and labs.

The issue is these small group sessions are designed to replicate team meetings in the real world. We are teaching them how to engage in small informal groups, to discuss concepts they are learning. And actually from an anxiety treatment perspective the worse thing you can do is encourage disengagement, the literature shows that once students overcome the initial fear of these small groups they greatly reduce anxiety and improve not only academic outcomes but also confidence and employability.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 08/07/2024 18:09

helpfulperson · 08/07/2024 15:41

I agree with this but part of the reason they are crying out for volunteers is because of rude, uncooperative children and adults who believe their child is the only one that matters. It's bad enough having to put up with that when paid for but the number willing to do it for free is dropping g rapidly.

Agree. I used to volunteer for groups for young people and in the last couple of years have quit them all - it became a majority not a minority of entitled parents and insufferable kids.

Parents all bemoan the absence of volunteers but they reap what they sow.

NeedToChangeName · 08/07/2024 17:10

RosieAway · 08/07/2024 09:58

Thank you. It’s also in the moment, what to do? We made a joke at first, then I said it wasn’t kind and was hurtful etc, but she kept it up ALL day (said it was because he was a boy - not at all a romantic connection btw, but as it’s a man, I certainly don’t want to force her into being “nice” to him).

I think I needed to be more “scary” - she wanted to wear something to school today and when I said no, ignored me. I got very serious and stern, she burst into tears saying her life was terrible, I’d hurt her feelings, why couldn’t she have a nice mum etc (she’s 5). I held fast and she was right as rain afterwards. So yes, I do wonder if my authority wasn’t authoritative enough, verging into permissive until I snap.

@RosieAway if you laugh at your child being cheeky, then get cross with them that's likely to cause confusion. Better to say "Maisie, watch your tone" ie consistent guidance of what is (not) acceptable

I don't understand your point about not wanting DD to be nice to your friend cos he's a nan. This is about good banners, not patriarchy

VitaminX · 08/07/2024 16:56

Poleowia · 07/07/2024 20:51

Huh? Of course she could have that sort of day in England! Reading your post I was thinking, yes this sounds like the childhood my kids have - in England. Very normal around where I live in anyway .

Glad to hear it!

She started going out and about by herself and walking to school and everything alone at 7 and I always see so much condemnation of this sort of thing on Mumsnet. My 6 year old runs round to his friend's house and goes to the playground as well, but he's not allowed as far as her.

But good if it's normal for 9 year olds at least, that's brilliant to hear. I still don't believe children in the bit of England where I grew up have as much freedom as my kids do because whenever I'm there I just don't see young kids out by themselves at all. Unaccompanied children always seem to be secondary age.

Arraminta · 08/07/2024 16:49

Yes I believe it is. In my experience, parents with a very modern approach are actually hand capping their DCs in the long term. I'm talking about being overly inclusive e.g. letting small DCs choose where to holiday or what car their parents drive. Also, not imposing firm boundaries and allowing their DCs to get away with murder. Wrapping DCs in cotton wool and never allowing them to suffer the consequences of their own actions. Helicoptering and micro managing DCs to the point where the child never has a moment to 'just be'.

I have witnessed the end results of this type of parenting and it's not pretty. DCs that are now graduating university are completely incapable of functioning alone or in the workplace.

sheroku · 08/07/2024 16:30

We're already there. Managing uni leavers at work is already an epic nightmare. The lack of autonomy is crippling.

Yep agree. I had a new grad who was working remotely go totally awol for two weeks last year. Eventually she reemerged and said she was "feeling a bit overwhelmed" and "needed some self care". I'm not kidding. It's absolutely wild.

fungipie · 08/07/2024 16:23

Edingril · 08/07/2024 08:54

How much is parents putting their anxiety and issues onto their children?

We see examples on here daily

I see it all the time, it is such a shame. I have a younger friend who moved out of the catchment area for the school where her 5 year old daughter is. They allowed her to stay till the end of year, but have now said she has to go to their new catchment area school, which is just as good.

Mum is refusing to accept this. Instead of fighting her case quietly, and at the same time being positive in front of the child- saying she can keep in touch with all her old friends a few minutes away, and have the opportunity ot make lots of new ones- she has openly ben talking about how awful, how nasty, how discriminatory, how horrible- etc. The daughter has picked up on this and is very upset. They will probably not win the appeal, so it will all be even more traumatic for child. Just no need. Child would have accepted the situation with a few tears- but now it is getting very complicated and upsetting.

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