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To think woman don't have it better now?

88 replies

firstbabyworries · 04/07/2024 06:03

Had a debate last night after watching a programme about how in history woman have been treated hideously. Husband said it's much better now. I largely disagreed.
The percentage of rape convictions is frightening. If it gets to court, (which it hardly ever does because who would believe you anyone, did you lead him on, where revealing clothing) it's just your word against his, who would ever believe a woman eh.
The rights to abortion in the US have changed, woman have no autonomy over their own body.
Donald bloody Trump! Need I say more?!

There are just tons and tons of ways life is so much harder for woman. Maybe because it's spoken about more now people think it's better. Maybe it is, maybe my judgement is clouded, the first two points are incredibly close to my heart so I might be talking rubbish!

OP posts:
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SharonEllis · 06/07/2024 18:32

AppleStrudel23 · 06/07/2024 09:48

@Areolaborealis Where in the west are women getting paid less for the same jobs as men? The gender pay gap has been debunked ages ago

The gender pay gap has not been debunked. If it hadn't existed there wouldn't have been meadures to tackle it, councils wouldnt have had to fork out back pay, companies wouldn't still report on it & the OBS wouldn't still be reporting on its existence
www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2023

HeBeaverandSheBeaver · 06/07/2024 17:57

I'm in Malta and apparently in the 12 century houses had balcony's with bars on so women could get fresh air as they were not allowed to leave the house So from that point of view I guess things are better. Lol.

Crankymonkey · 06/07/2024 12:05

Areolaborealis · 06/07/2024 10:09

Women are often in part time positions, and expected to take child rearing or caring rolls that are either low paid or not paid at all.

That’s a personal choice though and dependent on the couple’s decisions.

DonnaHadDee · 06/07/2024 11:56

Personally I think things are better overall for women now in UK than any time I'm aware of in the past. Having said that, there are still huge issues to be addressed, and lots more to be done, and I'd agree with many of the issues raised by earlier posters.

While the trend is positive here, there is nothing to say that it will remain so going forward. Things can and do regress. Look at some of the disturbing developments in recent times in United States, Israel, etc. There was also a belief that countries like Russia and much of the middle east would be more progressive and open. The opposite has happened.

Thepeopleversuswork · 06/07/2024 10:53

The fact that there’s a backlash against women’s progress doesn’t negate the fact that the overall long term trend is positive.

Yes there are some frightening developments triggered by both the political right and left, of which the erosion of abortion rights is an obvious example.

But this has to be seen against the backdrop of a long term shift which is supportive of more autonomy and independence for women.

Within my mother’s lifetime it was illegal for a woman to open a bank account without permission from her husband. Married women in Ireland were required by law to not work until the mid 1970s. Domestic violence was legal in the UK until the early 1990s. Women in the UK have only been allowed to vote for just over a century.

We need to remain vigilant but I still think overall the long term trend is positive .

Areolaborealis · 06/07/2024 10:09

AppleStrudel23 · 06/07/2024 09:48

@Areolaborealis Where in the west are women getting paid less for the same jobs as men? The gender pay gap has been debunked ages ago

Women are often in part time positions, and expected to take child rearing or caring rolls that are either low paid or not paid at all.

AppleStrudel23 · 06/07/2024 09:48

@Areolaborealis Where in the west are women getting paid less for the same jobs as men? The gender pay gap has been debunked ages ago

Valeriekat · 05/07/2024 07:05

Useruserdoubleuser · 04/07/2024 06:09

No. Not in most of the West. We have much more freedom now. Give us a period in time you thought things were better?

I think they were better 20 or 30 years ago.

BigtubOLard · 05/07/2024 06:38

OP
Woman (with an 'a') = one woman
Women (with an 'e') = several women

ChristmasFluff · 05/07/2024 06:26

There was a time in the late 1970s/early 1980s where things seemed to be really improving for women. I felt that the world was my oyster. Then Thatcherism really began to bite, and the whole 'Superwoman' 'you can have it all' crap started.

Suddenly, traditional home-making and child-rearing was seen as a betrayal of the sisterhood, and we were all meant to be out at work - so that employers could pay lower wages, meaning in general two working parents were needed to run a household.

But men did not, in general, pick up any of the domestic owrk, and women have been cheated into 'doing it all' rather than 'having it all'.

Don't get me wrong, I have had a great career. But I also was able to be a SAHP until son was at school. At times it was financially really hard - I re-read 'The Women's Room' at the time, and it was a very different experience to reading it in 1983. this time around, I too was eating my baby's leftover potato skins.

Parenting is important too, and yet many are forced to outsource it. Real feminism would support traditional women's roles, rather than trying to become the same as men and removing all gender difference - ironic that many won't do that, even though trans women in female spaces is a huge issue for them.

Areolaborealis · 05/07/2024 05:53

timetobegin · 04/07/2024 06:21

Well you can have your own money and keep it, divorce your husband (who legally cannot beat or rape you), you may have a job once married/a mother, you may take out a mortgage and have a credit card, you will not be shunned if pregnant outside of wedlock, it is commonplace to go to university or study stem…I think it’s better.

Better but...

Women often earn less than men.

Women are expected to work and do the majority of child rearing.

Women bear the financial responsibility for children where the man is free to abandon them and refuse to pay for them.

Women are beaten and raped by men who get away with it.

Women are expected to put up with painful medical interventions without anaesthetic.

Women are expected to move aside to make things comfortable for men (GRC and women's spaces).

A long way to go.

firstbabyworries · 05/07/2024 05:30

Fair point everyone, things have got better. I did acknowledge to my husband and to myself that yes it is better, but my frustrations come from people, not all, but people being seemingly content with just better when there is still so much work to do.
To those that also talked about rape/sexual assault case, I was attacked as a child twice. Both times I knew the person, first time he went to prison for 12 weeks, out for good behaviour. Second time I was told that I had been encouraging him because I had been hanging out with him. I do just feel if I was a boy this may have been deemed more serious, I might be totally wrong. It still hurts all these years later. Just those two things took a part of me and yes has definitely made me look at things differently and maybe not take time to look at the good.

OP posts:
ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 04/07/2024 19:13

firstbabyworries · 04/07/2024 06:29

I think everyone has a fair point, there are lots of things that are better. Maybe my frustrations are that men in particular just don't seem to realise how far we STILL have to go. Maybe I just need to wind my neck in and chill out! I just remember when I was about to find out if I was having a boy or girl I was so hoping it wasn't a girl because I didn't want her to have to grow up in a world with anything I've had to deal with, which I admit is probably what's really wound me up the most.

Acknowledging things are better doesn't mean that they are good.

Goldenbear · 04/07/2024 19:09

Heatherbell1978 · 04/07/2024 07:32

I'm 46 and one thing I really have noticed is respect in the workplace. I have a finance job and when I look back to some of the goings on when I started in my early 20s I cringe. Where I work, lots of senior females.

Yes, I agree with this, I’m a bit younger but early 00’s office job I was walking up some stairs and had my backside smacked with a file a man who was quite senior was holding. Same man for work socials commented on my backside again and how he liked it. Lots of sexism that was indirect. I think there is quite a big change in the idea of the girlfriend as a possession, so someone to boss around and protect. I have been watching The OC with DD who is a teen and the main boy characters are just as above, it is the same in Dawson’s creek, girls are held to a higher standard and they are somehow lacking if they behave like the boys. I know they are dramas but I think that has perhaps not the case anymore, I know my teen son finds this an alien concept.

pollyglot · 04/07/2024 18:54

I have spent years researching my mother's family history and have just completed a trilogy from my 4x gt grandparents in the mid 18th cent through to 1947. Let me tell you all about what life was like for my foremothers:

Susanna Fearnley married a Lieutenant of the Royal Artillery, Robert Carlile, in 1768. She had two babies in Yorkshire, and then they went to Newfoundland in 1773 with the army. She endured 2 winters in the bitter cold, along with all the other army wives, gave birth to another son, then the family was posted to Boston in 1775. They suffered appallingly through the siege of Boston, Robert was badly wounded at the Battle of Bunker Hill. The baby, Benjamin, died of smallpox during the winter, and then Susanna died in childbirth because she was malnourished and the deprivation was terrible. The baby girl, little Ann lived only an hour.

Susanna and Robert's elder son, Thomas, and their daughter, Susannah, suffered terrible PTSD though it wasn't recognised as such back then. They were only 6 and 4 when their mother died and they were shipped back to England alone as their father was needed in America.

Thomas lost all his money in 1812 when his woollen mill in Pudsey burned down. His wife Mary tolerated his moods and the loss of money - though her family helped out. He killed the suitor of one of his daughters because he was beneath her socially. He got off. Mary had 9 children, and had lost 5 of them before she died. One of her daughters died in childbirth, one, along with her babies died of cholera in Hamburg. Her daughter Sarah fell in love with a maltster, but her father refused to let her marry him as he wasn't good enough for her. She had to run a school to make ends meet, and she and Uri waited 12 years until her father died before they could marry, in 1846.

Thomas' grandson, also Thomas, heir to a large estate in Herefordshire, shot the coachman when he was drunk/on cocaine because it was alleged he had been overworking at Oxford .He too got off. He married a Welsh girl, a miner's daughter, Mary Eliza, for her beauty and kindness and was an abusive drunkard, squandered all his money and left his wife penniless when he died at 55, presumably of disease of the liver. His only daughter had to go to work as a secretary, despite being raised a lady, was raped by the employer's valet while she was under the influence of her first encounter with champagne at Newmarket Ladies' Day, was forced to marry him because as an unmarried mother she had no employment future, and her child would be born a bastard. They parted at the registry office door. She raised her daughter alone, in dire poverty.

Three of the four sons of the drunk B.A.(Oxon) emigrated, or spend years abroad. Their mother Mary Eliza received two telegrams on the same day informing her that her two sons were missing in action at Gallipoli. One survived, to be nursed by my wonderful grandmother, who saved so many lives in Exeter and in Malta. But she couldn't vote despite her intelligence and her dedicated service to her country.
Granny was raised by her wealthy father in Exeter along with her two sisters who were forbidden to marry or to work. One, a talented artist was prevented from going to art school because it was far too bohemian. Her youngest sister had had measles as a young child was was rendered completely deaf and partially blind. They were to be the companions of their elderly parents, with no autonomy or life of their own. Granny escaped because of the war and the need for VAD nurses. One of their maids had a premature stillborn baby and in despair, left the body on the roof of the house. She was of course dismissed without a reference, lucky to have escaped being charged with the murder of the child. Who knows what happened to that poor girl.

There is so much more, illustrative of the truly awful lot that was women's up until the 1970s, when we first feminists began to protest the expectations of women and their total lack of personhood. I could go on and on...yes, even more than I have already, but really, the disadvantages girls faced in my youth were terrible.

Maybe I will. Go on and on, I mean. Wait for it.

SharonEllis · 04/07/2024 17:42

lamppostliving · 04/07/2024 17:02

I wasn’t talking about abusive relationships in the legal sense. I was talking, as you were from the context, about women in relationships where men are not pulling their weight in the house and with kids. I actually say this in my post.

And as I said in my post, women can’t make these men behave differently. It’s clear from many of those posts that women have tried really clearly to get the man to behave differently. Women cannot make men do anything, and the man’s behaviour is the man’s responsibility if he refuses to take his equal share of domestic work. Yes, it IS woman blaming to make women responsible for men’s poor behaviour. It’s shit enough being in a relationship like that without other women shaming you for ‘not getting him told’ . ( even though they have and he doesn’t care). Yes, that is making it all the woman’s fault. It very clearly is.

As I also said in my post, many women face real barriers to leaving due to inaccessible and unaffordable housing and the cost of living.

I am not talking about legal definotions, nor have I ever used the phrase 'not getting him told' in my life so I think you are confusing me with someone else.

maw1681 · 04/07/2024 17:27

I think it is much better now actually but there's still a long way to go.

My mum had to give up work when she had children (I was born'81) simply because there were no childcare options and no flexible working policies. She would have needed my dad's permission to have a hysterectomy or sterilisation. She was discouraged from going to university because she "will end up just getting married and having babies". sexual harassment in the workplace was considered a fact of life. Although my dad did do housework & childcare society's opinion was that it was her job and my grandmother was horrified and amazed whenever my mum mentioned that my dad had done some ironing/cooking etc! Many other things

lamppostliving · 04/07/2024 17:02

SharonEllis · 04/07/2024 08:24

I'm not sure you do know what threads I'm talking about. I'm not talking about threads where women are trapped in abusive relationships & marriages. I do think we all have a responsibility to not put up with certain male behaviours though, and to bring up our daughters & sons to find them unacceptable.Thats not woman blaming. I believe in women's capacity to have some agency in this debate.

I wasn’t talking about abusive relationships in the legal sense. I was talking, as you were from the context, about women in relationships where men are not pulling their weight in the house and with kids. I actually say this in my post.

And as I said in my post, women can’t make these men behave differently. It’s clear from many of those posts that women have tried really clearly to get the man to behave differently. Women cannot make men do anything, and the man’s behaviour is the man’s responsibility if he refuses to take his equal share of domestic work. Yes, it IS woman blaming to make women responsible for men’s poor behaviour. It’s shit enough being in a relationship like that without other women shaming you for ‘not getting him told’ . ( even though they have and he doesn’t care). Yes, that is making it all the woman’s fault. It very clearly is.

As I also said in my post, many women face real barriers to leaving due to inaccessible and unaffordable housing and the cost of living.

Sahara123 · 04/07/2024 10:47

pollyglot · 04/07/2024 06:26

Nonsense. Even in my 74 years on this earth I can see enormous changes that have benefitted women no end. Of course it's not perfect, but to imply that women are worse off now is just silly. Back then, there were so many hurdles . When I was first married, I had to have my husband's permission to buy a new carpet on HP, even though I was the breadwinner and he wasn't working. I couldn't get a loan or a mortgage as a single woman. I applied for the Married Teachers' Allowance, to be told that I had to have external gonads to qualify. There were no childcare facilities in the entire city, other than a creche in the church hall. For short-term care only. You want to be a working mother? We'll make it impossible unless you have family to help out. No tax breaks of any sort. When we travelled to the UK, both of us with grandFATHERS born in Devon, he was allowed to stay a year because his paternal grandfather was UK-born; I was allowed only 6 months because it was my maternal grandfather. Grandmothers didn't count. Just silly little irritating things like that that put women in their place.
My grandmother nursed horribly wounded soldiers throughout WWI, and still couldn't vote in Britain because she was not yet 30.
Oh, and sexual abuse? Our lecturers at Uni could abuse us at will because they held all the power. Being groped during a viva? During a tutorial? Get used to it. Protest and I'll fail you.
The thing that I do feel strongly about though is the women with children who are forced to work because of the awful issues around housing and living costs. There is no longer any choice, unless you have a high-earning partner. Young women are being worked till they drop...so very unfair.

What a wonderfully written, vivid snapshot of women’s lives in your lifetime. Women’s lives have certainly improved although as you say there’s more to be done. I am so happy that I was able to stay at home with my young children without hardship. Although I appreciate that’s not what all women want , I’m glad I was able to do it without worrying about the bills.

Okayornot · 04/07/2024 10:15

Women definitely have it better now than in other periods. But just because things haven't improved doesn't mean they are right.

Startingagainandagain · 04/07/2024 10:14

I think many things have improved but there still are some major issues to address: violence against women, low sexual assaults and rape convictions, women still being discriminated at work (especially when they go on maternity leave), porn affecting men's views of sex and relationships...

I think another major issues is that although women have gained rights, freedom and independence, we are still living in patriarchal societies that were not built to take into account women and their needs and were instead designed by men for men.

Many men have also failed to 'evolve' with the times and still hold the same old beliefs about women and don't quite see them as equal individuals.

Oreoqueen87 · 04/07/2024 10:07

MoveToParis · 04/07/2024 06:11

1990’s?

Back when the papers used to have Page 3 girls and do things like run Countdowns to young girls like Charlotte Church losing their virginity?

I’ve worked in HR since the 90’s and casual sexism and not so casual sexual harassment was rife in the 90’s. Senior management seldom took it seriously.

There were bugger all female CEO’s Ime. This is US data but illustrates it well. https://www.qualtrics.com/blog/fortune-500-ceo-diversity/

I loved the 90’s, it was a magical time to be alive but life definitely wasn’t better for women.

The Diversity of the Top 50 Fortune 500 CEOs Over Time

Take a look at the top 50 CEOs of Fortune 500 companies to see how racially and gender diverse the leaders of America’s biggest companies are.

https://www.qualtrics.com/blog/fortune-500-ceo-diversity

Rondel · 04/07/2024 10:01

MoveToParis · 04/07/2024 06:11

1990’s?

Marital rape was only criminalised in the UK in 1992.

In my home country, contraceptive law was only liberalised in the early 1990s, abortion was illegal throughout the 1990s, and divorce was only made legal in 1995. The GP at my university would not prescribe the pill on grounds of conscience.

The 1990s were no idyll for women.i do agree that the erosion of hard-fought women’s rights now by the arbitrary legalisation of men’s dysphoria is horrifying.

pontipinemum · 04/07/2024 09:48

I'm 35 and I think things have improved for women since I was a teen/ at uni/ started in the work place. Teen - groped in a night club walking by sleezy older man it's a 'compliment' at uni I was sexually assaulted by some one who had a measure of power over a drunk 20yr old and was advised by the police to drop all charges. At my first job I found out all the male graduates had stated on more money than me.

We have a way to go, and there are certainly shitty things out there for women to deal with now. But my g.gran/ gran all worked and didn't get the recognision or pay the deserved. I was born a bastard god only knows what my life would have been like being born in the 1880s not the 1980s

But I do think things are improving. Or possibly I am just older/ wiser and don't put up with things as easily as I used to!

Jackette · 04/07/2024 09:45

Life will never be truly wonderful for women because men exist. Look I’m married and have a DS and also male friends. So I do not just outright hate men. But I worked in a male dominated industry for many years and also still take part in what is a male dominated hobby. They forget you are there sometimes. The occasional comment over many years. What some of these educated men really think, it’s an eye opener.

But if you are a woman in a developed country who is educated and understands what you can achieve then it’s the best time to be alive by far.

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