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AIBU?

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To continue to challenge the school on this? Religious observance

116 replies

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:04

Our DC go to a non denominational primary school in a fairly rural part of Scotland. At the end of each term (Christmas, Easter and summer) there is an end of term service in a Church of Scotland church with the other primary schools.

We are a non religious household and while we welcome RME in an educational sense, we are not comfortable with our DC attending church services. A couple of years ago, DD1 told me that JOY meant you must love Jesus Over Yourself and after that we decided to withdraw the DC from the end of term services.

I emailed the school and asked what other provision was in place for non Christian children and I was told none - if we didn't want them to go to the church then we had to pick them up early (the school day finishes after the church service).

When I challenged this, I was told that 'Religious Observance' was part of the curriculum of excellence and I was sent a link which went into the legislation.

The definition of RO is :

Religious Observance is defined as follows: "Community acts which aim to promote the spiritual development of all members of the school's community and express and celebrate the shared values of the school community".

However, when I read through it, it's very clear that should a child be withdrawn, suitable alternative arrangements must be made. I don't think the school has actually read it!

I was then told that they offer alternative activities for the other RO throughout the school year......I am totally unaware of any other such activity and so I asked for clarification at which point they passed me over to the education manager. How can I withdraw them if I don't know when it happens??

The educational manager has said that alternative provisions should be made and the school will hopefully keep me better informed in the new academic year.

I highly doubt that will happened and I'm pretty sure at the next service (Christmas) we will be in exactly the same position.

All the schools here (two main primary schools and a few village schools) are exactly the same. It's a big tradition that goes back decades where all the schools go to the church and I don't think any of them want to change that.

Should I continue to fight this? I'm not a confrontational personal and I've otherwise had a good relationship with the school but this is really annoying me. I had to take unpaid leave today to collect the kids early from the school. I just can't see how they can justify it!

The legislation can be read here :

www.gov.scot/publications/curriculum-for-excellence-religious-observance/

OP posts:
suburburban · 28/06/2024 19:58

Is there no other primary school nearby as an alternative if you don't like what is being taught?

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:57

Confusionn · 28/06/2024 19:53

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. All you are doing is teaching your child to be intolerant to the wider world and all the different aspects to it. By going on about it like you are, you are creating the problem, but then that is true of a lot of atheists that never stop banging on about religion, even more so than your average practising christian.
I suppose you would object if it was a Christmas pantomime instead? because Cinderella or Snow White are fictional

Quite the opposite, we talk about different religions and teaching them to be respectful of everyone and their beliefs. We give them the option of the church service, we wouldn't not allow them to go.

OP posts:
Zanatdy · 28/06/2024 19:56

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:30

Actually, DD2 is now declaring she's Christian. She loves Jesus and told me she wants to be Christian as otherwise she'll not get in to heaven or have eternal life.

So - three times a year on top of a heavy emphasis on Christianity during the school year IS overriding our teachings at home.

I want to be respectful to other religions so won't says to the DC that's it's wrong, just that it's what Christian's believe and we don't practice Christianity.

She will have forgotten about it in days. My children don’t have a religion, I am a Christian and their father is a Muslim. They celebrate Christmas and Eid and they are close to their cousins on dad’s side and know a lot about Islam. They went to church services now and then in primary school, and they’ve been to the mosque a handful of times (Eid sometimes and grandfathers funeral). None of this has made them a hard core Christian or Muslim. Maybe in the days surrounding the services they might have spoken about it more or asked about the religious practices their cousins operate. But for any young kid, here today gone tomorrow. It makes it hard for the school if 2 teachers stay back, if I felt as strongly as you I’d be going to pick my child up or keeping them off. Schools find it hard enough with sharing staff around the classrooms, sharing SEN staff as not enough staff taking these jobs. I just wouldn’t be making teachers jobs harder because I convinced myself my child was going to be corrupted as they went to 3 services a year. But some people do like to cause a nuisance, I’m not one of those people.

pastaandpesto · 28/06/2024 19:56

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:18

My friend goes with her DD at the end of term and said at Easter they had two kids come to the front and loaded their backpacks with heavy items - this represented their sins. One was robbery apparently! They then pretended that after death, God removed the backpack of the Christian but the non Christian's remained on their back (this was role play - no idea if they were actually Christian or not). The moral of the story was that God forgives your sins if you are Christian.

I know a lot the kids who go to the service are not actually Christian, but they go because their parents don't have alternative childcare for them.

I'm not surprised you're unhappy with this OP, I would be. We lived rurally where only two of the 32 state primary schools in the area are secular, so I understand your frustration at the absurdity of this type of religious teaching nonsense being forced upon children by, effectively, the state.

Although our DC"s school was actually at the more Jesus-y end of the spectrum, it was very gentle and extremely tolerant. So although it isn't something I would have chosen, I was comfortable enough with it.

But the idea of telling little children that they are sinful is borderline abusive. I don't know what to suggest, OP, it's awful.

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:55

@Screamingabdabz I have no problem with them learning about Christianity, as stated previously.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that one, as you are making assumptions about how we approach religion in our house and it will derail the thread.

We are tolerant of all religion, but don't practice any.

OP posts:
Confusionn · 28/06/2024 19:53

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. All you are doing is teaching your child to be intolerant to the wider world and all the different aspects to it. By going on about it like you are, you are creating the problem, but then that is true of a lot of atheists that never stop banging on about religion, even more so than your average practising christian.
I suppose you would object if it was a Christmas pantomime instead? because Cinderella or Snow White are fictional

Cuwins · 28/06/2024 19:51

I would absolutely be pursing it, personally I'm not sure how I would feel about my DD attending (she is only 2 so not come across anything like this yet) but I would be really cross that there wasn't an alternative option offered to those who want it for whatever reason.
One of the issues as stated above will be freeing up staff to stay with them- however that might become a lot easier if the school let all parents know there is this alternative, they might suddenly find they have plenty staying behind so it's easier to manage.

Screamingabdabz · 28/06/2024 19:51

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:40

Just because it always has, doesn't mean it always should?

As I've stated above, it's affecting DD2. She's totally conflicted and I'm trying to be as neutral as possible but it's hard.

I'm all for teaching of religions in school. I absolutely welcome it, in an educational sense. As in 'Christians believe this, and Muslims believe this' etc. however, telling them it as truth is different, and that's what happens at church.

If I wanted my children to attend church, I'd take them on a Sunday.

Well yes... While we still teach Shakespeare to school pupils, and we still have a justice system based on Christian values, and a language formed around Biblical ideas and imagery, then yes, they’ll need to know about Christianity….

Your child has latched on to Christianity, yes because they talk about it in school, but also because all children have an innate spirituality and she’s exploring that. As adults we lose it because parents do what you’re doing…they get angry and shut it down and don’t nurture it.

If you don’t like the idea of Christianity, you could sit and talk to her about the big questions of life, or prayer, or ideas of God. You could explore that with her. But lots of parents and adults don’t, and that’s where the school are filling that gap.

It’s not about turning them in church going Christians. It’s about tuning them in to something bigger than themselves.

AngryLikeHades · 28/06/2024 19:50

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:18

My friend goes with her DD at the end of term and said at Easter they had two kids come to the front and loaded their backpacks with heavy items - this represented their sins. One was robbery apparently! They then pretended that after death, God removed the backpack of the Christian but the non Christian's remained on their back (this was role play - no idea if they were actually Christian or not). The moral of the story was that God forgives your sins if you are Christian.

I know a lot the kids who go to the service are not actually Christian, but they go because their parents don't have alternative childcare for them.

This additional info here you gave would make me worry about the messages they are sending the children. It is by far a different level of awful.
I think the first post indicates a possible grey area, however I do mostly agree with you as an atheist.
I'd be furious.

Pantaloons99 · 28/06/2024 19:49

@spriots yes that's a really valid point. You are right. But OP is not going to be that parent. No change is coming anytime soon, especially whilst her child is in school. OP is highly unlikely to effect change here. But it would be wonderful to see it change in time as it's against my values too.

@sleepfortheweek I share the same views on this as you. I would feel uncomfortable if my son was doing this. Perhaps I can laugh about it and see the positives as my son is the way he is. He's Autistic so has a fantastic bullshit detector and sees every hole in the argument. But as another poster has said, he enjoys parts of it - he has really enjoyed philosophising with his teacher now he's coming to the end of primary, he enjoys going with his classmates down to the church. They're all ' subjected to it together.' I have no problem helping my son see how nonsensical it all is. I just try encourage him to be polite when he challenges it all in school.

I honestly feel your daughter will absolutely change her view on all this very quickly by secondary school. This is more about your frustrations that religion is still doing this and enforcing it's nonsense upon us. I do feel the same but it's not worth singling my son out over. I've seen how it can be when parents start peeing the school off. I believe they absolutely do see the kids of these parents differently.

The heaven/hell thing is deeply unsettling.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 28/06/2024 19:46

MistressIggi · 28/06/2024 19:42

I am laughing a bit at the thought of Humanists U.K. having anything sway over the management of the school! They need to find a way to hold on to your child OP while the service is happening. However, they probably expect parents to be quite happy to have their dc finish early a couple of times a year.

The humanists - who think humans can change sex and take the Mickey out of religious types?

DinnaeFashYersel · 28/06/2024 19:45

I went to a Scottish non dom school the JW kids always got to sit out.

To reassure though as an atheist I went to a few services a year and did Easter and he nativity and remained an atheist.

spriots · 28/06/2024 19:45

MistressIggi · 28/06/2024 19:42

I am laughing a bit at the thought of Humanists U.K. having anything sway over the management of the school! They need to find a way to hold on to your child OP while the service is happening. However, they probably expect parents to be quite happy to have their dc finish early a couple of times a year.

They have done this sort of case in the past

https://humanists.uk/2019/11/20/school-concedes-in-collective-worship-legal-case-will-provide-alternative-assemblies/

School concedes in collective worship legal case

Parents Lee and Lizanne Harris successfully challenge compulsory collective worship in school assembly on human rights grounds In a shock climbdown, Oxford Diocesan Schools Trust agrees to provide a meaningful alternative assembly of equal educational...

https://humanists.uk/2019/11/20/school-concedes-in-collective-worship-legal-case-will-provide-alternative-assemblies

slughater · 28/06/2024 19:44

wow, the Easter thing sounds appalling
I agree, canvass opinion of other parents
I'm not sure what the role of the 'education manager' is we don't have that role in England I think
I would keep pushing on this. I'm going to hazard a guess that you are white and therefore presumed to be 'christian really' and just making a fuss. The beliefs of your family are just as important as anyone else's and deserve respect.
I wouldn't worry about your DD too much though, ,just say 'that's nice dear' and carry on with the respectful discussions.

Precipice · 28/06/2024 19:42

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

Do you think it's also essential for the 'innate spiritual development' of children from Jewish/Muslim/Hindu families that they are forced to attend Christian services at school and taught Christianity as truth?

It's not possible for children to grow to adulthood in this country without a knowledge of Christianity and the Bible. It is, however, possible to teach those through a comparative Religious Studies education, rather than presenting Christian dogma as universal.

MistressIggi · 28/06/2024 19:42

I am laughing a bit at the thought of Humanists U.K. having anything sway over the management of the school! They need to find a way to hold on to your child OP while the service is happening. However, they probably expect parents to be quite happy to have their dc finish early a couple of times a year.

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:40

HoneyButterPopcorn · 28/06/2024 19:38

How do the kids feel?

We (me and my siblings) didn't attend the Christ of Scotland school services and it was horrible for us. We didn't get to go with our friends, felt singled out and different, had to stay behind when our friends go to go off...

Trust me, they won't 'catch the god' of they go to church once a term.

We give them the option. They never want to go.

OP posts:
HoneyButterPopcorn · 28/06/2024 19:40

Oh and DS went to school where they went to abbey a couple of times a week. He wasn't overly impressed at first - I told him to enjoy the peace and quiet, and take advantage of the opportunity to sit in a beautiful historic building and look at all the gilt and statues. How often do we get to sit and daydream in the week?

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:40

Screamingabdabz · 28/06/2024 19:35

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

And three visits a year and a few references to Jesus isn’t going to turn them into zombified cult members. This ignorance and bigotry just highlights even more why religious literacy is important.

Just because it always has, doesn't mean it always should?

As I've stated above, it's affecting DD2. She's totally conflicted and I'm trying to be as neutral as possible but it's hard.

I'm all for teaching of religions in school. I absolutely welcome it, in an educational sense. As in 'Christians believe this, and Muslims believe this' etc. however, telling them it as truth is different, and that's what happens at church.

If I wanted my children to attend church, I'd take them on a Sunday.

OP posts:
HoneyButterPopcorn · 28/06/2024 19:38

How do the kids feel?

We (me and my siblings) didn't attend the Christ of Scotland school services and it was horrible for us. We didn't get to go with our friends, felt singled out and different, had to stay behind when our friends go to go off...

Trust me, they won't 'catch the god' of they go to church once a term.

Talkinpeace · 28/06/2024 19:35

Compulsory RE in schools is the best way to create atheists yet invented.

Tell your kids NEVER to think of it as "little baby cheeses"

and let them enjoy the spectacle while believing nothing.

Pantaloons99 · 28/06/2024 19:35

Just saw your update OP. I wouldn't like that either. I absolutely would challenge it quite strongly to your daughter. I wouldn't even care about disrespect. Saying she is Christian and loving Jesus I could cope with ( pretty likely that will change by secondary).The heaven hell nonsense I would very strongly challenge. ' We do not believe in that and there are many people who also don't believe this to be true. We have no evidence at all on this. ' I'd be teaching evolutionary theory straight away.

If my son was doing this I'd feel differently than I do.

Screamingabdabz · 28/06/2024 19:35

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

And three visits a year and a few references to Jesus isn’t going to turn them into zombified cult members. This ignorance and bigotry just highlights even more why religious literacy is important.

LoveSandbanks · 28/06/2024 19:34

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:18

My friend goes with her DD at the end of term and said at Easter they had two kids come to the front and loaded their backpacks with heavy items - this represented their sins. One was robbery apparently! They then pretended that after death, God removed the backpack of the Christian but the non Christian's remained on their back (this was role play - no idea if they were actually Christian or not). The moral of the story was that God forgives your sins if you are Christian.

I know a lot the kids who go to the service are not actually Christian, but they go because their parents don't have alternative childcare for them.

Bloody hell im a fully paid up Catholic and I’d be very uncomfortable with this teaching. Children don’t have sin ffs!

DillyDallyingAllDay · 28/06/2024 19:34

Definitely start asking the other parents if they'd prefer for their child not to go. Most parents don't know that they can opt out!

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