Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To continue to challenge the school on this? Religious observance

116 replies

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:04

Our DC go to a non denominational primary school in a fairly rural part of Scotland. At the end of each term (Christmas, Easter and summer) there is an end of term service in a Church of Scotland church with the other primary schools.

We are a non religious household and while we welcome RME in an educational sense, we are not comfortable with our DC attending church services. A couple of years ago, DD1 told me that JOY meant you must love Jesus Over Yourself and after that we decided to withdraw the DC from the end of term services.

I emailed the school and asked what other provision was in place for non Christian children and I was told none - if we didn't want them to go to the church then we had to pick them up early (the school day finishes after the church service).

When I challenged this, I was told that 'Religious Observance' was part of the curriculum of excellence and I was sent a link which went into the legislation.

The definition of RO is :

Religious Observance is defined as follows: "Community acts which aim to promote the spiritual development of all members of the school's community and express and celebrate the shared values of the school community".

However, when I read through it, it's very clear that should a child be withdrawn, suitable alternative arrangements must be made. I don't think the school has actually read it!

I was then told that they offer alternative activities for the other RO throughout the school year......I am totally unaware of any other such activity and so I asked for clarification at which point they passed me over to the education manager. How can I withdraw them if I don't know when it happens??

The educational manager has said that alternative provisions should be made and the school will hopefully keep me better informed in the new academic year.

I highly doubt that will happened and I'm pretty sure at the next service (Christmas) we will be in exactly the same position.

All the schools here (two main primary schools and a few village schools) are exactly the same. It's a big tradition that goes back decades where all the schools go to the church and I don't think any of them want to change that.

Should I continue to fight this? I'm not a confrontational personal and I've otherwise had a good relationship with the school but this is really annoying me. I had to take unpaid leave today to collect the kids early from the school. I just can't see how they can justify it!

The legislation can be read here :

www.gov.scot/publications/curriculum-for-excellence-religious-observance/

OP posts:
TinklySnail · 29/06/2024 02:03

I don’t get what the problem is. Just pick them up early if you don’t want them to join in.

Toddlerteaplease · 29/06/2024 01:50

It's three times a year. You can teach her what you like. Not worth the argument.

Ponderingwindow · 29/06/2024 01:32

Screamingabdabz · 29/06/2024 01:21

What a shame they won’t get to reflect on the meaning of life then. I think most humans ask that question don’t they? You think life just boils down to a binary language of moral choices? May as well be AI then. Nothing about the beauty of creation? The mystery of the universe? What happens after death? What is love?

This is all ‘innate spiritual development’ - are you saying your children shouldn’t reflect on this? If so I feel sorry for them.

You do realize that people who aren’t Christian do these things? Even atheists contemplate these things. It is wonderful to do so without artificial constraints and advanced interpretations.

we have wonderful philosophical discussions in our household about all aspects of existence.

Screamingabdabz · 29/06/2024 01:21

ShrinkingEveryDay · 28/06/2024 23:45

I could not disagree with you more. I’m more than capable of raising my kids to be moral human beings without religion. They don’t need any “innate spiritual development” thanks 🙄

What a shame they won’t get to reflect on the meaning of life then. I think most humans ask that question don’t they? You think life just boils down to a binary language of moral choices? May as well be AI then. Nothing about the beauty of creation? The mystery of the universe? What happens after death? What is love?

This is all ‘innate spiritual development’ - are you saying your children shouldn’t reflect on this? If so I feel sorry for them.

MaterCogitaVera · 29/06/2024 00:02

The National Secular Society have various campaigns related to religion in schools - I’d contact them to ask for advice and support if I were you.

ShrinkingEveryDay · 28/06/2024 23:45

Screamingabdabz · 28/06/2024 19:35

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

And three visits a year and a few references to Jesus isn’t going to turn them into zombified cult members. This ignorance and bigotry just highlights even more why religious literacy is important.

I could not disagree with you more. I’m more than capable of raising my kids to be moral human beings without religion. They don’t need any “innate spiritual development” thanks 🙄

shams05 · 28/06/2024 23:39

I had something similar in the early days of when DS2 and DD were in primary. As they were the only 2 who weren't attending church the headteacher tried to be difficult and said I'd have to collect them then bring them back for an hour until 2:30 when school closed.
I remember I just didn't send them in on the last day of term at Easter, Christmas and for the leavers service which were always in church.
Once she realised it wasn't a bother for me to keep them home they made arrangements in school. There's always a TA or two who are also not practicing Christians and who were happy to look after any children in school whilst everyone was at church.

jagit75737 · 28/06/2024 22:53

Screamingabdabz · 28/06/2024 19:59

“Do you think it's also essential for the 'innate spiritual development' of children from Jewish/Muslim/Hindu families that they are forced to attend Christian services at school and taught Christianity as truth?”

They will need to have spiritual development opportunities too - it’s mandatory. And if those families send their child to a Christian school then they should expect a level of Christian practice that they will be allowed to opt out of. It doesn’t mean they might not like to look at the pretty coloured lights at Christmas in church, or to hear what a Christingle means, or light a candle and to know why the church is decorated in different colours at different times… and to maybe sit and reflect on the similarities and differences with their own religious practices.

It’s all good experiential stuff that children will benefit from - certainly more than being excluded and standing in a corridor with a text book while the other kids are joining in and getting on with it.

OP sent her child to the local non-dom school, not a Christian school.

jagit75737 · 28/06/2024 22:51

Screamingabdabz · 28/06/2024 19:35

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

And three visits a year and a few references to Jesus isn’t going to turn them into zombified cult members. This ignorance and bigotry just highlights even more why religious literacy is important.

What eill kids be missing out on if they're not taught Christianity as fact?

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 22:36

@Soontobe60 but the school shouldn't have 'Christian values' to impose in the first place.

DD2 loves singing hymns (they practice before the services ) and I would never tell them they weren't allowed to sing them or hoping in.

If my DC have a balanced experience of all religion growing up and then chose one, then I would absolutely support that. I'm not anti religious, just because I don't have one.

OP posts:
Staplerandstappler · 28/06/2024 22:27

I’m an atheist but DD goes to a Catholic school. It’s an excellent school, hence sending her there, and I’m happy to suck up the religious stuff for the other benefits.

Elsbetka · 28/06/2024 22:17

I wish you the best of luck with all this OP.

My son is at a pretty religious (CofE) middle school and it's the single most annoying/frustrating thing for him about it. He loathes the collective worship, the references to the gospel in their motto and charter etc, the repeated mini lectures during assemblies and tutor time. (He doesn't actually seem to mind the RE lessons as much - learning about other religions doesn't bother him that much but as a child very focused on facts and science, he finds the repeated insistence that Christianity is the default very frustrating.)

It's very patronising and weirdly naive of people to say things like "don't worry, he won't catch God" - that really isn't the point.

Scorchio84 · 28/06/2024 22:09

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:30

Actually, DD2 is now declaring she's Christian. She loves Jesus and told me she wants to be Christian as otherwise she'll not get in to heaven or have eternal life.

So - three times a year on top of a heavy emphasis on Christianity during the school year IS overriding our teachings at home.

I want to be respectful to other religions so won't says to the DC that's it's wrong, just that it's what Christian's believe and we don't practice Christianity.

Oh FFS! I teach in an ostensibly catholic school in Ireland & even we have pared back the church's influence, we have many children of varying religious backgrounds, no child needs guilt or this type of indoctrination, go to mass in your spare time if that's what you want but schools need to stay out of it

I've had to deflect questions about religion for a long time in school from pupils, it should be separate, we're slowly moving away (communion, confirmation) but it should have happened a long time ago, no shade if that's your thing

Ponderingwindow · 28/06/2024 21:58

ThursdayTomorrow · 28/06/2024 21:50

Can you not let your daughter hear the other side of the argument and make up her own mind about what she wants to believe?

That only works if the school is presenting all religions equally. The school is endorsing Christianity and only Christianity. All the other religions are taught as religion should truly be taught, as a thing some people believe that has an impact on our history, culture, and government.

HildaOgdensMurielle · 28/06/2024 21:58

ThursdayTomorrow · 28/06/2024 21:50

Can you not let your daughter hear the other side of the argument and make up her own mind about what she wants to believe?

The thing is it isn’t presented like that- it’s presented as The Truth, with a side order of guilt and fear thrown in (if you don’t believe it then you have sinned [read- are a bad person] and will go to hell).

It isn’t fair to expect primary school children to think their way through that without a lot of support, which they are unlikely to get from their teachers.

Children are told to trust and learn from their teachers- if the teacher takes them to church where the person in charge tells them they have to believe this or face terrible consequences, and there is tacit or spoken agreement from the teachers, then it’s difficult for the children to let it go.

Soontobe60 · 28/06/2024 21:53

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 19:30

Actually, DD2 is now declaring she's Christian. She loves Jesus and told me she wants to be Christian as otherwise she'll not get in to heaven or have eternal life.

So - three times a year on top of a heavy emphasis on Christianity during the school year IS overriding our teachings at home.

I want to be respectful to other religions so won't says to the DC that's it's wrong, just that it's what Christian's believe and we don't practice Christianity.

But what will you say if she wants to practice Christianity? Basically, you're imposing your beliefs on her, which some would think was just the same as the school imposing its Christian values.
We are not a Christian family, don't do church etc, but both our DC went to CoE schools as they were the only schools available at the time. They fully embraced the religious stuff, much to our amusement. It pretty soon waned when they ent to secondary school!
The thing is, if you make a stand and insist on different provision for your DC during these religious events, what will you do if the DC want to go because they enjoy it or because they want to be with their friends?

ThursdayTomorrow · 28/06/2024 21:50

Can you not let your daughter hear the other side of the argument and make up her own mind about what she wants to believe?

HildaOgdensMurielle · 28/06/2024 21:48

Seashor · 28/06/2024 21:42

RE is an agreed syllabus, it’s quite interesting actually. We’ve been to many places of worship. I don’t know of any children or staff who have caught any of the religions.
I’ve had the occasional child who’s been withdrawn from ‘religious’ trips. They either spend the day in another class or in the school office BUT they become very proficient at LEGO.

Trips to places of worship are different to attending services. One is an interesting cultural and historical lesson, and the other is an act of worship.

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 21:46

Seashor · 28/06/2024 21:42

RE is an agreed syllabus, it’s quite interesting actually. We’ve been to many places of worship. I don’t know of any children or staff who have caught any of the religions.
I’ve had the occasional child who’s been withdrawn from ‘religious’ trips. They either spend the day in another class or in the school office BUT they become very proficient at LEGO.

RE is different to RO

OP posts:
ALunchbox · 28/06/2024 21:44

Are there other parents who feel the same way? Acting as a group may give you more weight

Seashor · 28/06/2024 21:42

RE is an agreed syllabus, it’s quite interesting actually. We’ve been to many places of worship. I don’t know of any children or staff who have caught any of the religions.
I’ve had the occasional child who’s been withdrawn from ‘religious’ trips. They either spend the day in another class or in the school office BUT they become very proficient at LEGO.

sleepfortheweek · 28/06/2024 21:41

Sandwichgen · 28/06/2024 21:37

Most churches I’ve been in have a ‘crying corridor’ or separate room with a glass window for parents to take young kids to, so they do t disturb worship. Parents can hear the service ‘piped in’
but the sound of the kids can’t get out. Would it be acceptable to you if your dc sat there with a book, with the sound relay turned off? A member of staff could easily keep an eye on him through the window

No such thing in the church they attend

OP posts:
Sandwichgen · 28/06/2024 21:37

Most churches I’ve been in have a ‘crying corridor’ or separate room with a glass window for parents to take young kids to, so they do t disturb worship. Parents can hear the service ‘piped in’
but the sound of the kids can’t get out. Would it be acceptable to you if your dc sat there with a book, with the sound relay turned off? A member of staff could easily keep an eye on him through the window

Allergictoironing · 28/06/2024 21:25

YABU because this country, yes Scotland too, is entwined legally, democratically, constitutionally, historically, culturally and socially with Christianity and the Bible. It’s essential for their education and innate spiritual development that they are exposed to it.

Being exposed to something is not the same as being made to join in. Having an understanding of the religious background to much of the history of this country I agree is very important, but being indoctrinated into one view being the only "right" one is what led to the slaughter of many innocent people in the time of the Tudors because they believed in one version of Christianity rather than another - Edward VI persecuted Catholics, then Mary I persecuted Protestants, then Elizabeth I ended up persecuting Catholics because they spent their time plotting to get rid so we could have another Catholic monarch.

Do you think it's also essential for the 'innate spiritual development' of children from Jewish/Muslim/Hindu families that they are forced to attend Christian services at school and taught Christianity as truth?

Hear hear! All schools should have the ability to allow pupils of different faiths to not attend overtly Christian festivals, make them sing songs in praise of a different God etc. How many of the Christian parents on this thread would be happy if their children's schools made it mandatory for the children to take part in prayers or songs praising a different God to theirs? Or making their children observe Ramadan?

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. All you are doing is teaching your child to be intolerant to the wider world and all the different aspects to it.

And teaching them that the school's way is the only right way is being tolerant of other beliefs how?

They will need to have spiritual development opportunities too - it’s mandatory. And if those families send their child to a Christian school then they should expect a level of Christian practice that they will be allowed to opt out of.

The OP's very first sentence specifies "non-denominational school".

Please do also confirm that you boycott anything related to Christmas and Easter that your children may enjoy.

In that case, I do hope you boycott any of the so called "Christian" traditions around these events that actually aren't anything to do with Christ? Fluffy chicks & eggs are related to fertility rights, and spring is the time of the year for births in the animal kingdom, and the sowing of crops. Evergreen decorations (including trees), Yule logs, feasting and gift giving etc at mid winter are not Christian traditions only, just about all religions have those and they go back to before Christ was born.

HildaOgdensMurielle · 28/06/2024 20:52

Dguu6u · 28/06/2024 20:30

Yes, of course keep challenging them. You are within your rights to ask for this, and your wishes are just as important as theirs. It sounds like this is not your usual explaining what some people believe happened at Christmas and Easter, but talking about it like it's the only truth and scaring them into religion. This is not right and they should be made aware.

talking about it like it's the only truth and scaring them into religion. This is not right and they should be made aware.

I agree. I am a Christian but I removed ds from mass because of the way they were talking to them.

If people are going to be religious then they should be allowed to find their faith themselves, they don’t need to be told at 5 that they will be going to hell if they don’t believe in a RC (or any other denomination’s) God.

It’s educational for children to be exposed to the whole plethora of faith practices, but not to be told any one has greater validity than the others.

Swipe left for the next trending thread