How do you start being "nice" as a person without looking "weak"?

Approach it from a place of a simple grid:

Passive — Assertive — Aggressive

Then simply decide the proportional response to the situation.

Kindness is not allowing people to walk all over you. That's not kind to them as they don't learn their behaviour isn't ok! Kindness is treating them with compassion and with good boundaries.

I think you are mistaking kindness and niceness with being a doormat or having to do everything people ask. That's not kind to you, and that's not kind to them.

Every difficult conversation can be had with kindness and consideration and clear future expectations .

Of course you can strike a balance. How you say difficult things really matters.its just a case of learning to approach difficult conversations in a way that focuses on positively moving forwards/upwards rather then bitterly dwelling on the past and negativity.

Why do you care about how you look to other people?

I think a lot of it is to do with boundaries. You can be a lovely person and still enforce boundaries. I think if you don’t do this then you may come across as weak

100% @GreyCarpet it took me a long time to realise that boundaries are about me, not others. We can’t control others (& we shouldn’t try). And that’s where kindness and niceness are strengths. Our choices - freely given.

I feel that boundary myself now

When it comes to boundaries, this is key.

A lot of people say they put boundaries in place but many don't. For some people, boundaries are still about 'control' and/or why won't they accept my boundaries?

When boundaries are things we have in place for ourselves.

If you don't feel them yourself, they're something you're expecting another person to abide by and get upset when they don't.

Or they're unspoken and just assumed - I wouldn't treat someone like that. What is wrong with me that they do that to me?

A true boundary is something you feel. And something that you apply to your own life.

If someone doesn't share it/agree with it/respect it, the onus is on you to make the changes required.

You can't demand that someone follows your boundaries - just know what they are and respect them yourself.

If someone repeatedly disregards your boundaries, you remove them from your life.

To me, kindness is similar to being considerate, and includes small acts of selflessness to help or please others.

Paying somebody a compliment. Taking their coffee cup to wash up with yours. Letting them have first choice of something. Taking time to genuinely ask them how they are. Helping with something, even though strictly speaking you don’t have to.

All examples of general everyday kindness in my book.

You definitely need boundaries - and they can be effective even if they are very giving. I mentioned earlier about deciding to love one friend unconditionally - which sounds very much an invitation to be walked over. In fact in this particular case it has the effect of providing a boundary - which has been clearly communicated. He has quite complex issues and there is anyways a risk of codependency. By saying I am just going to accept you and love you unconditionally I don’t have to get enmeshed in his complex life. It has given me distance (ie a boundary). I feel that boundary myself now and feel much lighter for it. It doesn’t mean that I’ll stand there and take a load of shit, just that I can provide an accepting space. Hard to explain.

I think everything is a strength if it is your choice. Whether it’s something very openly giving or something more cautious. The strength comes from within.

It has taken me a long time to be able to do this. I’m quite old now 😂 But the key for me was learning how to set boundaries and how to hold them. They can be kindly done though.

Sounds like your Mum was a wise woman @TwattyMcFuckFace

"Kindness is a strength"

Yes!! Completely agree with this.

My starting point would be that 'nice' and 'kind' are not synonymous.

Nice - generally prioritises not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, never wanting to say something 'mean', wanting too be liked, wanting to help regardless pf the impact on themselves. So someone effectively has to lie (to themselves and others) in order to achieve it or disadvantage themselves in some way (that's why it's seen as a weakness by some - a nice person will never say no).

Kindness - generally prioritises respect and honesty to both parties.

Imagine I am in a relationship (romantic, friendship, professional). I really don't want to be in that relationship anymore. I don't enjoy their company, they might be disrespectful towards me, I might just not fancy them anymore, their values don't align with mine, I don't think the service they provide is up to scratch - whatever.

If I were a 'nice' person, I would continue the relationship. I don't want to be seen as the bad guy, I don't want to want to hurt their feelings, I don't want to want to let them down.

But I grow increasingly resentful. In a romantic relationship, this might look like snide comments, no sex, irritation accompanied by guilt. No fun for either person. But I haven't said anything to them because I'm nice...

In a friendship, it might look like a slow fade - fewer phone calls, messages or catch ups. Leading too upset and confusion on the friend's part. Or ignoring my own feelings and just feeling irritated and annoyed by them. But I haven't said anything to them because I'm nice...

In a professional relationship, it might mean I know my windows aren't being cleaned but I pay them anyway, I don't like the way my hair looks but I've been going to this hairdresser for years and I feel awkward about changing. So I carry on. I have negative thoughts towards them and the professional service they provide but I carry on. I might moan about them to my friends or start a thread on MN to complain. But I haven't said anything to them because I'm nice...

However, if I were a 'kind' person, I would end the relationship. I would consider the impact of my words on the other person so I would do it respectfully and not with any intention of causing further distress. I would understand that people can feel upset or disappointed or angry without that meaning I have done something wrong.

We are both able to move on and find more satisfying relationships elsewhere.

Nice leads to people pleasing behaviours. Other people know that they are a pushover and will never say no, even if they want to. People lose respect for them because it's hard to respect someone who doesn't respect themselves. Nice becomes a weakness because it generally only goes one way.

A kind person has boundaries. They will help someone else if they have the capacity to do so but also feel comfortable saying no. Kindness goes both ways.

I actually agree being nice/ kind can lead to (some) people thinking you are weak and you do have to be very firm with boundaries.

I see this at work a lot - I work with a colleague who is quite intimidating and the people we supervise wouldn't dare take the piss with her whereas I feel the boundaries get pushed a lot with me.

One example - I work on call shifts and am happy to help people out to swap if I can. People started to come to me first and I found it hard to say no - their gran was ill, child's birthday ( I'm a suckered for a sob story) etc so I ended up taking in lots of extra shifts. People didn't always repay the favour when I needed to swap and one CF even asked me to cover her night shift on the day I left the job (finishing early at midday) and was moody with me when I said no.

I have two kids now and one is so kind but struggles to stand up or herself. I am working so hard to help her develop boundaries and be assertive.

It'd taken me a long time to protect myself with boundaries. If you can do that, kindness and compassion will be your biggest strength!

However I am also minded that being nice/kind can be seen as a weakness.

I’d say weak people are the complete opposite of nice. Being selfish, nasty and being a bully is the epitome of weakness.

A lot of the time nice people are taken advantage of by cheeky fuckers due to their nice, kind and caring nature. I think people who allow others to take advantage of them are either vulnerable or struggle with assertiveness and saying “no”.

You can absolutely be nice/kind and be assertive. I think it’s all down to confidence.

Here’s an example:

There was a girl who was two years older than me who bullied me for an entire year - I didn’t know her, I don’t know why she decided to bully me, and it was an extremely stressful year of my young life. I was 14.
Fast forward to my adult life, and I was at a hometown function and all of a sudden here she came rushing towards me — my bully, who I hadn’t seen since school.
She was all sunshine and smiles and gushing about how wonderful it was to see me after all these years —
I pulled all the strength I had and told her how lovely it was to see her, too.
Even though I would’ve much preferred to tell her I hadn’t forgotten a single day of her bullying and how it had affected my life.
Actually, her bullying made me a much more kind and empathetic person.

Actually what a previous poster said "Do no harm, but take no shit" is a very succinct, but not unkind way of expressing it

I think it would help to have more context as to what might be being kind/nice and what might be being a pushover? If it causes you no detriment whatsoever, and it's just being helpful, then that's probably fine, but if it encroaches on what you/your close friends/relatives would consider reasonable then it's being unreasonable/ being a CFer/however you want to word it.

Basically, don't put yourself out if it's going to disadvantage you (in any way)

Do no harm, but take no shit.

Why? Part of a healthy approach is to be clear who you want to spend your life with. Bullies don’t make the cut. I’m not unkind to them, I just choose not to give them bandwidth.

I made the decision yesterday, in a close friendship, to just give & be kind, not question and just accept what I am told. Various reasons & just with this particular person. I was worried about being weak/a pushover/a mug. But then I realised that in this case - with a friend who really needs some unconditional love from someone, it’s not a weakness. He can choose to respond however he wants & it’s still not a weakness on my part. I feel very strong tbh since making that decision. It’s my choice - no-one is making me do it & I want nothing in return. I feel much more at peace & in control since making that decision.

Don't fake it be it and mean it.
Why do you feel you have to ask@greenglassfull ?

This just raises questions such as why are you feeling this way? What has happened? Who is it in particular you want to be kind to?

I don't give two shits if anyone thinks I'm weak. I know I'm not. I have always been empathic but it took time to fully live my values.

The only people who will think or call you weak are people who do not share these values. You want to keep those people at arms length. Often these will be the people who will try trample all over your boundaries, often narcissistic personalities. If you are genuinely empathetic you are probably already in relationships or have family members who are narcissistic and believe kindness is weakness. These are the messed up people not you

So the answer is basically just do what feels good inside and genuine - not to win friends or look good. Fir example,I just can't leave a snail in the road. I always have to move it. No one knows, I don't do it for favour, it feels right. So make that your motivation; living a life that aligns with your values

Set boundaries so you are not taken advantage of. It's absolutely ok to say no to anything you don't want to do. Just say it with kindness.

am genuinely confused by terms such as "kindness" and what it means in practice.

Can you give an example of the kind of situation you’re thinking of that is confusing?