To ask if its fair that inclusivity has excluded my DC from their hobby?

@Scattery You’re clearly not affected by the COL like many MN’ers then. A small business losing customers, who cares? Being inclusive of everyone’s needs, such as ppl hard of hearing like me, who cares about that?

Who says Timmy has a carer? Who says the only thing Timmy can do is vocal stim? There's a massive spectrum of ability in disabilities, and our non verbal ND people can still live independently. Being non verbal or only having vocal stims isn't in itself a measure of intelligence or understand but is simply a measure of speech apraxia and processing.

Also vocal stimming doesn't mean distress, it can, but it is usually used simply to process the world. We all process the world differently. We all process happiness differently.

There's absolutely no reason for Timmy to remove himself from a situation he is not distressed in.

To equate vocal stims only with distress is a very narrow minded way of looking at things.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead They’ll have to lose business, I suppose. People losing their jobs doesn’t seem to be considered an issue.

What do you think they should do?

Obviously.

I'm not the one in this thread worried about a disabled kid bringing down a cafe's profits though, LOL.

@Scattery When a baby or toddler becomes really distressed in a business, responsible parents take them outside. Isn’t that what you do, @Scattery?

The dementia sufferers I’ve met in cafes have someone with them and if they got distressed, I imagine their carer would suggest a change of scene. Surely that’s what Timmy’s carer would do as well if the stimming became very loud?

@Scattery When a baby or toddler becomes really distressed in a business, responsible parents take them outside. Isn’t that what you do, @Scattery?

The dementia sufferers I’ve met in cafes have someone with them and if they got distressed, I imagine their carer would suggest a change of scene. Surely that’s what Timmy’s carer would do as well if the stimming became very loud?

Same here. And I’m NT.
People pay money to do things, we are in a capitalist society after all, and people vote with their feet and money gets lost.

I couldn’t cope with a persistently crying baby in a cafe either. I would have to leave it they didn’t.

In 99.99% of situations, Timmy's not gonna be in the cafe for hours on end.

One of my local cafes has visits from high support need students (with 1-1s) at a local schools. They are loud. It's never disrupted my conversation for more than a few minutes. Worst case scenario I have to repeat myself. If I'm on my own and the stimming is loud I have loop earbuds (I am sensitive to noise).

Would you complain about crying babies too?

What about an elderly person with dementia?

Or should they stay out of cafes too?

@Jimmyneutronsforehead They’ll have to lose business, I suppose. People losing their jobs doesn’t seem to be considered an issue.

What do you think they should do?

I couldn’t cope with a persistently crying baby in a cafe either. I would have to leave it they didn’t.

So what would you have the cafe do please?

In 99.99% of situations, Timmy's not gonna be in the cafe for hours on end.

One of my local cafes has visits from high support need students (with 1-1s) at a local schools. They are loud. It's never disrupted my conversation for more than a few minutes. Worst case scenario I have to repeat myself. If I'm on my own and the stimming is loud I have loop earbuds (I am sensitive to noise).

Would you complain about crying babies too?

What about an elderly person with dementia?

Or should they stay out of cafes too?

I recall a Reddit thread a few years ago where a father complained that his son was being allowed to participate in brass band practice but not to participate in competitions - he was seldom on task and his stimming involved making noises.

He was taken aback when other Redditors pointed out that bands enter competitions in order to win and that you don't compete with the band unless you're able to play at a certain level.

In the end, he seemed to accept that the brass band was doing enough to accommodate his son by involving him in practices.

Similarly, when I was at school I enjoyed hockey practice but was never good enough to get picked for the team. I could take part in practices and knockabouts at school - and even travelled with the team as a sub - but knew that I wouldn't play in competitions unless a significant number of our players were hit by the lurgy. I was happy with that.

I now know that there are several reasons as to why I've never been good at sport: lax tendons and patella alta. These problems coupled with my flat feet apparently explain why I have a tendency to trip and fall. Even if I'd known what the problem was, I wouldn't have expected our hockey coach to place me in the team. Our coach was open about her policy and I knew what I was signing up for when I joined the hockey club.

My late husband helped train youngsters in Shotokan karate. Some youngsters with difficulties trained at the club but would never have managed to represent the club in kumite (fighting) competitions.

We can strive for inclusivity, but we can't always include everyone in everything.

Re: the suggestion above that other DC can provide support for DC with needs. Sometimes this is possible - I've seen it in a school setting. However, it's up to the adults to provide ongoing support for children.

On some social media boards, if someone under 18 is being required to provide ongoing support for younger or disabled siblings, there are immediate responses of "Parentification!"

While it can be good for the development of children to help others, you can't expect them to do it all.

I've seen discussions on Mumsnet where posters have agreed that it's wrong for teachers to expect pupils to provide ongoing support for other pupils. Why is it any different in an extra-curricular situation? Surely that's the job of the adults, not the children?

@Jimmyneutronsforehead Cafes and restaurants typically operate on razor-thin margins. If they lose even one afternoon’s business, it’s serious.
Also, if customers equate the cafe with excess noise, they won’t return.

It hasn’t excluded your son, no one has told him to leave. If the ND kid can’t complete tasks at all or well, why not give him tasks alongside another capable person, so there is nothing dependent totally on him alone?

It hasn’t excluded your son, no one has told him to leave. If the ND kid can’t complete tasks at all or well, why not give him tasks alongside another capable person, so there is nothing dependent totally on him alone?

Another example, if Timmy was a vocal stimmer, and spent a lot of time grunting and groaning and making long drawn out noises that were very loud and Timmy wanted to go and spend time at a café, Timmy is welcome to do that.

If anybody else can not or will not tolerate it and they cannot find a solution or compromise then they have the opportunity to leave.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead Your cafe example also raises the question of what happens if Timmy’s loudness impedes other customers from having quiet conversations (as is typical in a cafe), so they choose to go elsewhere.

What happens to the cafe?