Child who enjoys being deceitful

Well, what sort of things are they? Are any of them hurtful to other people, or is it more Dennis the Menace/ Bart Simpson type thing - eg yeah squeezing out all the ketchup looks a lot of fun right now? Because a lot of kids do the latter sort of thing and don’t really know why - there have even been threads on here where people reminisce about their behaviour and still can’t fathom it. Could he need to go in for something actually a bit risky, say skateboarding, for release?

So actual advice:

If it's really important he doesn't access something then either don't have it or put a lock in it.

So don't buy sweets etc. if he accesses tech inappropriately lock the tech in your car boot over night. Put a latch or lock on doors in your house.

Etc etc.

It'll take a long time to persuade him to respect boundaries because he has survived by ignoring them. So don't rely on them - just do the equivalent of baby proofing your home. Remove stuff if it's not safe.

@Octavia64 yes you have just articulated this trauma response really well.

OP, I don't know if you are quite old fashioned in your parenting style or were brought up in a strict household. I read through your posts that you're actually afraid of having no control so are reacting quite strongly here out of your own fear. These things he is doing aren't really that terrible. He's just not a 'compliant' kid. Traumatised or Neuro divergent kids rarely are compliant.

I had to change my entire mind set in parenting. I had to let really stupid stuff go from my own childhood and the authoritarian way I was parented.

The suggestion ref his own little box of healthy snacks in his room sounds a really good one to me. Who cares if he's snacking away in his room if it helps keep him from wandering round all night looking for food.

Ask him what he wants and needs. Ask him how he'd feel about the snack box.

Your message that he thinks "he should be able to do what he wants" is the problem. To get through to him that no one gets to do what they want is the issue. I'm not sure how you develop a conscience in a child that has never had that behavior modeled. You need help.

My adhd child goes through phases of taking food. Not meals but just things she fancy's that she knows I'd say no to because it's too late for sweets, ice cream and other things like that. I'd say it's 100% linked to her adhd and her need to have a dopamine hit as her brain lacks it. She eats more than me during the day, she's not hungry just craves dopamine which she gets from sneaking downstairs and then the chocolate she's sneaked. I pull her up on it when it happens she apologises for not asking few weeks pass and she's back at it. I don't think you're starving your child I think it's an adhd thing. It presents in different ways for different people.

My issue is, he enjoys doing things he knows he’s not allowed to do, for the reason that he knows he’s not allowed to do them.

Dont punish. Keep responding with love and support. This is how traumatised children test their newer caregivers, to reassure themselves that they are now loved and their new caregiver won’t turn into an abusive adult.

It builds trust in them that you won’t hurt them. Usually it takes YEARS of this before they trust enough to settle down.

Yep as soon as i read "he did live somewhere previously" and i was like "now we are getting to it.

I would actually try and find professional support IRL as randoms on the internet arent going to give the most qualified advice.

Alcoholics are inconsistent parents. If the child has spent multiple years being brought up by them then he will have acquired strategies to survive.

Often alcoholics don't feed their children regularly. They prioritise alcohol over their own or others food. He will have learnt that if he wants to get fed regularly he needs to take food from the family store and save it in a place where his parent cannot find it. That way he can eat a little bit each day until the next time the parent buys food rather than the parent eating it and him going hungry.

Equally, he's going to need to lie to the parent about where that food has gone.

Alcoholic parents often get into rages and shout at and try to hit children, he's going to learn to lie in order to try to stop the rages and prevent the abuse.

He has learnt survival skills that kept him eating and reduced the risk of physical abuse.

You can teach him survival skills that are better fitted for your family, where you will actually feed him and you won't abuse him.

But words are cheap and he can't afford to believe your words. Only your actions over a long period of time will deactivate the food hoarding and the lying,

Can you break the cycle of stealing food by giving him a box for under his bed and filling it with a mixture of good food and treats that he can help himself to, without having to resort to stealing, and putting a decent lock on the treats presses elsewhere in the house. Those mini bags of breakfast cereals, treat bars apples, bananas, crisps, bars, etc. He does sound to have issues as you say and I see that you are doing your best to get him help. In the meantime if he had his own box of snacks/treats that he can choose himself, would it help as means he doesn't have to steal and can help himself when he wants. It also gives him reassurance there is food available whenever he needs it. I read a lot of Cathy Glass books, she is a foster carer for children and she often talks about children who have been starved or deprived of food in a family setting before they came to her, hiding or sneaking food for the bad times, if that makes sense. I'm not sure if this applies to the child in question here but could be worth considering

Wait, you have said when he does something wrong, you talk with him and there isn’t a recurrence but then he moves on to something else,

This isn’t a child that is purposely defying you. This is a child that through neglect has no idea what the boundaries are. He is going to test for them. Just keep responding with love and support, but it is also important to tell him why he should follow your rules. He won’t like “because I said so” and so on- because his younger years of trauma have led him to have a distrust of adult rules.

ADHD also has poor impulse control, so he may do things without thinking them through. You may think it’s obvious he should know he isn’t supposed to do x or y, but he won’t have thought that far ahead.

I think you are being overly dramatic by thinking he will end up being a criminal.

It's aimed at poster suggesting you punish OP.
Language is so so powerful. Kids feel everything and he will feel this view that you have. Try stop seeing him as deceitful.

My son is Autistic/ADHD and can be obsessed with sugar and sweets. He tries to sneak stuff all the time. It really isn't that big a deal. They often crave a dopamine hit and it is because there is an issue in their brain regards dopamine.

My answer to this problem is just don't buy it. It's the only way I could have any boundaries. He now has significantly less sugar and does fine. Sugar also impacts behaviour alot with ADHD ( if that's what's going on).

The thrill seeking is also a major thing.

I cannot emphasise positive encouragement enough but also accepting that maybe he's just different and you have to work with that.

I would just pick the biggest issue you have and work on one thing at a time. Offer him a great reward. Something he loves or really wants if he follows the rules on this one big behaviour change. Don't do it all at once.

Don't let your fear of what he will become cloud you. I've been there. He'll be capable of so much more than you realise

ridiculous comment
I am guessing he isn't stealing mashed potatoes and bread, more like sweets, biscuits, crisps etc. children don't eat those things because they are hungry, it's more because they want them.

If he has been badly parented and has had very few consequences plus an alcoholic parent it is very very normal for children to hoard food and to not stick to boundaries.

This is because they have learned at a behavioural level that their parent will not feed them and will not be consistent and that in order to survive they need to look to themselves.

You can't undo this with chats. He knows that people are unreliable and when you say he can always ask for sweets if he needs them he will remember the unreliable and inconsistent alcoholic who might have said similar and then refused or been passed out drunk,

If you don't want him eating sweets don't have them in the house, have food available for him to eat that's healthier.

This 100%. You've just echoed what I have written!

I'm not an expert on this but this type of behaviour is known in cases where there has been neglect. It's a bit like stealing. I understand that these kids will do it almost like a survival instinct; no one is going to take care of me so I will make sure I take care of myself. I imagine this takes years of consistent love and care to undo.

There's just something about your tone or how you are seeing things that I think you need to visit tbh. You are seeing this kid as some naughty, deceitful being. He needs some love and understanding in your approach because if I can sense this negativity in your language about this child, he absolutely will feel it.

How about you just don't buy sweets. Or if you do they are hidden away where he isn't aware and he has to ask you for them.

Instead of punishing this poor kid, offer rewards for positive behaviour. Stop calling him deceitful as a start.

same consequences everytime. boring and predictable
no drama
perhaps injecting a silliness into everyday life. so maybe more board/card games with elements of bluffing in or family escape room
& just spitballing but what about delegating him a specific role ie food/event planner for a night or something, to give a sense of responsibility within the family & to reframe him from labelling himself as naughty/sneaky

Yeah they do. My kid would pig out on sweets in secret, hide wrappers behind their bed and be mysteriously full at mealtimes, refusing to eat what I'd cooked. It was soul destroying. And yeah, even stole from shops.