Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Ilovemycatalot · 23/06/2024 11:03

I see that as soon as you speak out about what the Israeli government are doing to the Palestinians the comment gets deleted.
I guess freedom of speech is only when it fits the narrative.

StepUpSlowly · 23/06/2024 11:02

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:42

Persecution of Jews didn't stop after the Holocaust. They were still being forced out of the Arab world. The shame you describe didn't last very long.

Have I said the persecution of Jews has stopped? I don’t think I have.

I think Hamas is a very good example in fact that it hasn’t stopped and that some people do see Jews and Israel as the same and would happily execute people (children included) for being Jewish.

I have said that EU governments would likely step in a lot stronger right now had the holocaust not happened. Which is very different to saying that persecution has stopped thanks to the holocaust. And I strongly believe that.

The same way I believe a lot of people refuse to condemn the actions of Israel in fear of being perceived as or taking the risk to encourage an antisemite sentiment.

Because I strongly believe that most people with half a heart and conscience would condemn any government who takes actions that leads to the death, exodus and starvation of civilians including and especially of children irrelevant of the backstory.

There is no good reason not to condemn the actions of Israel right now. And it’s very different from wishing bad things upon Jewish people or tolerating the terrorist attack that happened to the Israeli population. Anyone who is impartial could understand that two wrongs don’t make a right and that Jewish past (and current) suffering doesn’t give them the right to cause similar suffering and devastation upon other folks who too have nothing to do with the conflict. The same way Jewish folks didn’t pick their faith and the struggle that unfortunately as come with it nor should be associated at large with the current Israeli government and their decisions/actions, people from Gaza didn’t pick to be born there and shouldn’t have to pay the price of a terrorist organization most didn’t even put in power.

FactsNotFictionOnly · 23/06/2024 11:02

poppiepudding · 23/06/2024 10:57

*who have achieved more than any other race alive today; *the irony of how you speak is staggering OP.

Elaborate?

Very disingenuous to make comments like that without explaining what you mean.

Ditto with the comments from other posters about ‘inaccuracies’ without stating what they are.

OP posts:
Ilovemycatalot · 23/06/2024 11:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

poppiepudding · 23/06/2024 10:57

*who have achieved more than any other race alive today; *the irony of how you speak is staggering OP.

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 10:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Oh, right, you've decided to double down instead of accepting you were making inappropriate comments. That's an interesting approach to take.

Again, this is a thread about anti-Semitism.

And calling it a Jewish government instead of Israeli government isn't even remotely ok.

Bedofroses85 · 23/06/2024 10:54

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:01

It’s ironic that you’re terrified about a second holocaust when there’s a genocide of the Palestinians happening right now.

We can’t turn a blind eye to the current events because of the persecution of Jews in the past. Palestinians should not have to pay the price for Nazis and others who persecuted Jews.

A genocide of the Palestinians is not what is happening. A lot of these deaths would have been avoided if Hamas actually cared or protected their people. But using them as martyrs and human shields does wonders for their objectives. And judging by the histeria and attacks on Jewish people going about their normal life Hamas is obviously succeeding

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Are we? How am I, a Jewish person in the UK, doing anything to Palestinians?

Your comment is anti-Semitic. You might want to ask for it to be deleted.

greencartbluecart · 23/06/2024 10:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ilovemycatalot · 23/06/2024 10:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MotherofChaosandDestruction · 23/06/2024 10:43

MyrrAgain · 23/06/2024 10:38

Congratulations on supporting the hamas ministry of (mis)information. 🤡

How am I supporting Hamas? I am a supporter of Jews and humanity - I cannot not comment on Israel's current mission but I did agree with the right to defend itself and still stand by that. What happened on Oct 7th and the excuses around why and the dismissal of what happened is honestly disgusting. No other nation would have to show videos of the horrors to be believed.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:42

StepUpSlowly · 23/06/2024 10:36

I think people who are using what’s going on in Palestine to hate on Jewish folks and Judaism are appalling, BUT most educated folks understand that Israel and Jews are two different things. A fair chunk also understand that even in Israel not everyone is in favor of what’s going on and that’s it’s not a Jews vs Palestinians but an Israeli Government decision making issue.

Most Jews I know (and it’s a fair bit) are against what’s happening in Palestine, they are massively protesting against it in fact.

Now have Jews suffered appallingly throughout history? Yes! Massively so and I agree with you that we are very far away from the day where Antisemitism won’t be a thing and what is currently happening further proves it.

But plenty of hectic, religious, etc… groups have been victims of endless persecutions throughout our history. And Jews actually benefit from the « shame » that came after WW2 where it’s now a little less likely that people would actually let another Genocide of Jewish people happen unchallenged, it’s also why there’s been a massive reluctance to take a strong stance against Israel and how they deal with Palestinians right now from governments, especially European ones.

So I agree that Jewish have barely caught a break as community throughout history but would disagree that they are the scapegoat of humanity.

A lot of the anti-Israeli government sentiment right now isn’t actually an anti-Jewish sentiment though alas yes some people will always jump at the opportunity to show their bigotry and further their own antisemite agenda every chance they get. Most people who weren’t anti semite before the recent events (I would say a good chunk of the EU population at least) aren’t suddenly antisemite now I don’t think.

Persecution of Jews didn't stop after the Holocaust. They were still being forced out of the Arab world. The shame you describe didn't last very long.

MyrrAgain · 23/06/2024 10:38

MotherofChaosandDestruction · 23/06/2024 10:30

This is said with sincerity but could you explain more? What are the inaccuracies?

OP I agree with the persecution of Jews through history and today. However, Israel's response has been entirely disproportionate and we are seeing a genocide in real time. I agreed with Israel's right to defend itself but they are not killing Hamas fighters, they are killing innocent children.

I agree about other genocides and it is not getting such a response though. Jews are seen as an acceptable race to hate and it's reprehensible.

Congratulations on supporting the hamas ministry of (mis)information. 🤡

TorturedPoetsDepartmentAnthology · 23/06/2024 10:37

kkloo · 23/06/2024 02:53

I'm discussing my experiences as an Irish (non Jewish) person. Israel is often criticized but Jewish people are not.

I bet if you asked a Jewish person, they’d disagree with you. You don’t get to speak for marginalised groups of people!

It is shameful that people are denying the facts - statistics show that there has been an increase in antisemitism since 7th October 2023.

It is separate to my personal views on the actions of the Israeli government. Incidentally, I abhor what is going on and I am sickened. However, denying antisemitism and Jewish peoples experiences is absolutely unacceptable and ignorant.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:37

TinyYellow · 23/06/2024 10:29

The persecution Jews have faced in the past is irrelevant to the valid and justified anti Israel sentiment now. Isreal is an aggressive, occupying state that will never achieve peace and its supporters will always live in fear. It will not change until the worlds powers accept that a Jewish state is not more important than a Palestinian one.

Just wondering what this has to do with anti-Semitism, which is very much not a thing of the past?

StepUpSlowly · 23/06/2024 10:36

I think people who are using what’s going on in Palestine to hate on Jewish folks and Judaism are appalling, BUT most educated folks understand that Israel and Jews are two different things. A fair chunk also understand that even in Israel not everyone is in favor of what’s going on and that’s it’s not a Jews vs Palestinians but an Israeli Government decision making issue.

Most Jews I know (and it’s a fair bit) are against what’s happening in Palestine, they are massively protesting against it in fact.

Now have Jews suffered appallingly throughout history? Yes! Massively so and I agree with you that we are very far away from the day where Antisemitism won’t be a thing and what is currently happening further proves it.

But plenty of hectic, religious, etc… groups have been victims of endless persecutions throughout our history. And Jews actually benefit from the « shame » that came after WW2 where it’s now a little less likely that people would actually let another Genocide of Jewish people happen unchallenged, it’s also why there’s been a massive reluctance to take a strong stance against Israel and how they deal with Palestinians right now from governments, especially European ones.

So I agree that Jewish have barely caught a break as community throughout history but would disagree that they are the scapegoat of humanity.

A lot of the anti-Israeli government sentiment right now isn’t actually an anti-Jewish sentiment though alas yes some people will always jump at the opportunity to show their bigotry and further their own antisemite agenda every chance they get. Most people who weren’t anti semite before the recent events (I would say a good chunk of the EU population at least) aren’t suddenly antisemite now I don’t think.

RedYellowPinkGreenPurpleOrangeBlue · 23/06/2024 10:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This. ^

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 10:36

TinyYellow · 23/06/2024 10:29

The persecution Jews have faced in the past is irrelevant to the valid and justified anti Israel sentiment now. Isreal is an aggressive, occupying state that will never achieve peace and its supporters will always live in fear. It will not change until the worlds powers accept that a Jewish state is not more important than a Palestinian one.

Oooo passive aggressive spelling

We've already had that on this thread

Not very original I'm afraid

MyrrAgain · 23/06/2024 10:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KimberleyClark · 23/06/2024 10:32

Comedycook · 22/06/2024 23:48

So do tell us how you feel about the current conflicts in

Sudan
Yemen
Democratic Republic of Congo
Myanmar

Edited

You’re missing the point that Israel holds itself up as a beacon of Western democratic values in the Middle East. None of those countries do.

I deplore anti semitism. I deplored the actions of Hamas on 7 October. I do not hold the Jewish people to account for the actions of the Israeli Government and IDF. But someone needs to be held accountable for this - which happened in the West Bank, not Hamas controlled Gaza

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw07wgrwzywo

A family photo of eight-year-old Adam, who was shot by Israel's military, posing in a hallway wearing a bow tie and a waistcoat

West Bank: Israel Defense Forces accused of possible war crime

UN expert says death of 8-year-old appears to violate law after reviewing evidence gathered by BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw07wgrwzywo

MotherofChaosandDestruction · 23/06/2024 10:30

OrwellianTimes · 22/06/2024 23:07

There are so many factual inaccuracies in your post.

I am not anti Jew or generally anti Israel. However as said above, no one can ignore the very real genocide that is happening right now. It’s horrendous.

This is said with sincerity but could you explain more? What are the inaccuracies?

OP I agree with the persecution of Jews through history and today. However, Israel's response has been entirely disproportionate and we are seeing a genocide in real time. I agreed with Israel's right to defend itself but they are not killing Hamas fighters, they are killing innocent children.

I agree about other genocides and it is not getting such a response though. Jews are seen as an acceptable race to hate and it's reprehensible.

TinyYellow · 23/06/2024 10:29

The persecution Jews have faced in the past is irrelevant to the valid and justified anti Israel sentiment now. Isreal is an aggressive, occupying state that will never achieve peace and its supporters will always live in fear. It will not change until the worlds powers accept that a Jewish state is not more important than a Palestinian one.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:27

greencartbluecart · 23/06/2024 10:24

Seeing the horrors in Palestine will trigger ( unfairly because the government isn't the religion or all its people ) antisemitism especially because of the way the Jewish state and religion are intertwined

In WW2 innocnet foreign nationals were incarcerated simply because of their nationality and it's the same being played out here

The idea of excessive Jewish influence is coming from the reluctance of the UK government to suggest that what is happening in Gaza is wrong , it is not defensive. When you see such horror , when war crimes are being committed and children killed in such numbers people will be horrified and to not see condemnation beggars belief really

I am sorry for the Jewish people caught up in this. But I am more sorry for the children caught up in this

Are you this laissez-faire about other forms of racism too?

Hoppinggreen · 23/06/2024 10:27

Anti semitism is very very old and I do wonder what it is about that particular group that always makes them a target.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.