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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
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43
somewhereovertherain · 23/06/2024 16:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:51

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:50

Wow.

And there we have it laid bare, expulsion by force is fine as long is its the side that you support is doing it.

It happened before you I or most people on here were born. Nothing to do with sides.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:50

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:48

It's not their land anymore. Hasn't been for over 70 years.

As I said, that's long enough, otherwise it just gets ridiculous. Don't personally want to start claiming Africa as my own just because we all originated there.

Wow.

And there we have it laid bare, expulsion by force is fine as long is its the side that you support is doing it.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:50

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:49

Even if they had the manpower they would not address a matter that is NOT AN OFFENCE. I am bored of your either stupidity or wilful misunderstanding. So here is a final goodbye. All you have done is prove what everyone else has said about false narratives attempting to support Israel.

They are not going to declare chanting something an offence if they're unable to deal with it in this day and age.

It's not that hard to comprehend, you just have to stop stamping your foot for a moment.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 16:50

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:43

Go look at the OP, some of the things that they have written, all of those things have been discussed here

Why do you think there is a large thread about Anti-Semitism right now anyway?

There is a thread about anti-Semitism now because anti-Semitism is a massive issue, despite what some on here are claiming. There was also a thread about Islamophobia earlier this week because that's also currently a massive issue. What are you trying to get at?

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:49

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:46

There's no significance to that whatsoever given that they don't have manpower to deal with thousands of people chanting something.

Even if they had the manpower they would not address a matter that is NOT AN OFFENCE. I am bored of your either stupidity or wilful misunderstanding. So here is a final goodbye. All you have done is prove what everyone else has said about false narratives attempting to support Israel.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:48

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:45

The Palestinians for continuous occupation goes back far longer.,

Why aren't they allowed to return to their lands but others are? Why isn't questioning their right to self determination seen as discrimination/racism against them when it is against others?

Why are they allowed to be discriminated against and have land seized from them? Why is it ok to ignore abuses of human rights and war crimes against Palestinians?

It's not their land anymore. Hasn't been for over 70 years.

As I said, that's long enough, otherwise it just gets ridiculous. Don't personally want to start claiming Africa as my own just because we all originated there.

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:46

Dragonsandcats · 23/06/2024 16:44

Agree

Yes - I agree too. The semantics and wilful blindness defending this, make me agree more not less.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:46

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:43

Police have never said that theft under £200 or possession of cannabis is NOT AN OFFENCE. They said they would not prioritise it.

There's no significance to that whatsoever given that they don't have manpower to deal with thousands of people chanting something.

LadyFeatheringt0n · 23/06/2024 16:45

There’s always jealousy from the left of people who work hard, make sacrifices, take risks and do well. The minute you’ve got some wealth, the left want to take it from you to give to the feckless and workshy.

What has this got to do with Jewish people? There are hard working successful people of all faiths and none, just as there are feckless workshy types among all.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:45

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:42

Israel has a legitimate claim going back at least 70 years.

That's long enough.

The Palestinians for continuous occupation goes back far longer.,

Why aren't they allowed to return to their lands but others are? Why isn't questioning their right to self determination seen as discrimination/racism against them when it is against others?

Why are they allowed to be discriminated against and have land seized from them? Why is it ok to ignore abuses of human rights and war crimes against Palestinians?

Dragonsandcats · 23/06/2024 16:44

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:01

It’s ironic that you’re terrified about a second holocaust when there’s a genocide of the Palestinians happening right now.

We can’t turn a blind eye to the current events because of the persecution of Jews in the past. Palestinians should not have to pay the price for Nazis and others who persecuted Jews.

Agree

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:43

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:42

Yeah, and they also won't arrest those people if they shoplift under £200 worth of goods, or carry a bit of cannabis on them.

What's your point?

Police have never said that theft under £200 or possession of cannabis is NOT AN OFFENCE. They said they would not prioritise it.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:43

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 16:39

There are so many people on here who seem weirdly comfortable with the levels of anti-Semitism both historically and presently. So comfortable, in fact, that they don't feel the need to talk about it and instead move the conversation on to a different one.

It's sad how incredibly predictable this thread has been.

Go look at the OP, some of the things that they have written, all of those things have been discussed here

Why do you think there is a large thread about Anti-Semitism right now anyway?

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:42

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:33

" Israel existed thousands of years ago but was under various occupations until regaining independence in the 20th century"

There is no legitimacy in any claim going back thousands of years. If that's the case then all the land in NZ, Canada, the US, South American and Australia belongs to those who can prove they are indigenous.

However, the Palestinians are genetically the descendants of the people who lived in the region back then. Describing them as "Arabs" has never been accurate, mostly they are the descendants of historic converts to Islam (IE not descended from people from the Arab Peninsular.

Israel has a legitimate claim going back at least 70 years.

That's long enough.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:42

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:40

"it is likely that its [River to Sea Chant] use in a wider protest setting, such as we anticipate this weekend, would NOT BE AN OFFENCE and would not result in arrests."

https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-met-response-to-terror-attacks-in-israel-and-ongoing-military-action-in-gaza-474080

Yeah, and they also won't arrest those people if they shoplift under £200 worth of goods, or carry a bit of cannabis on them.

What's your point?

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:40

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:35

And as people have pointed out to you the reason it's not a crime on marches is because the Met can't arrest the number of people that are chanting it. Same as they can't go after people shoplifting less than £200 worth of goods, or people using Cannabis.

And if you don't get that you're not in the 'middle' of this at all.

"it is likely that its [River to Sea Chant] use in a wider protest setting, such as we anticipate this weekend, would NOT BE AN OFFENCE and would not result in arrests."

https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-met-response-to-terror-attacks-in-israel-and-ongoing-military-action-in-gaza-474080

UPDATE: Met response to terror attacks in Israel and ongoing military action in Gaza

The Met's operation to provide reassurance and security to communities across London in response to the terror attack in Israel and subsequent military...

https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-met-response-to-terror-attacks-in-israel-and-ongoing-military-action-in-gaza-474080

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 16:39

There are so many people on here who seem weirdly comfortable with the levels of anti-Semitism both historically and presently. So comfortable, in fact, that they don't feel the need to talk about it and instead move the conversation on to a different one.

It's sad how incredibly predictable this thread has been.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:38

" With the 1948 situation, isn't a large part of the land, that was known as Palestine at the time, now the kingdom of Jordan? (like Israel, a nation/country that was under various occupations or regimes, but has been in existence for centuries"

See this just shows you have either been following propaganda or are very poorly informed on the subject.

Transjordan and the British Mandate for Palestine were separate territories.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:35

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:25

Your bias means you clearly cannot accept facts. They say it is not a crime on marches, hence they will not be pursuing arrests. That is what the other poster said.

Semantics and changing the goalposts to accommodate your narrative is not the gotcha moment that you think it is.

Edited

And as people have pointed out to you the reason it's not a crime on marches is because the Met can't arrest the number of people that are chanting it. Same as they can't go after people shoplifting less than £200 worth of goods, or people using Cannabis.

And if you don't get that you're not in the 'middle' of this at all.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:33

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 16:28

@Aladdinzane Mosab Hassan Yousef (son of one the Hamas founders) has spoken about the issues, including at his speech to the UN.

It definitely, as he says, goes back before the 7th October Hamas terrorist attacks, but he explains (as someone who was a Hamas insider) how the cause is Hamas and related previous organisations and their ideology.

I'm not an expert but learning more (I was motivated to learn more after 7th October), the issues didn't start in 1948. Israel existed thousands of years ago but was under various occupations until regaining independence in the 20th century.

With the 1948 situation, isn't a large part of the land, that was known as Palestine at the time, now the kingdom of Jordan? (like Israel, a nation/country that was under various occupations or regimes, but has been in existence for centuries). Which makes me wonder. When the chant about river to sea is said, do those chanting it include Jordan as well as Israel in their desire? If so, what does Jordan think about that? Don't suppose it's something they want and assume it's a concern to Jordan as well as Israel? Unless if course it's not about land/nation states and is actually about antisemitism (or racism, as some posters have suggested would be a better term than 'antisemitism'.

Going back to OP's original post because I I've realised the direction of this thread has kind of proved her point. Any discussion about the history of antisemitism seems to inevitably include people doing Whataboutery about Israel. Why? OP noted the issue of racism against Jewish people has been a problem long before Israel regained independence in 1948. It goes back centuries.

Edited

" Israel existed thousands of years ago but was under various occupations until regaining independence in the 20th century"

There is no legitimacy in any claim going back thousands of years. If that's the case then all the land in NZ, Canada, the US, South American and Australia belongs to those who can prove they are indigenous.

However, the Palestinians are genetically the descendants of the people who lived in the region back then. Describing them as "Arabs" has never been accurate, mostly they are the descendants of historic converts to Islam (IE not descended from people from the Arab Peninsular.

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 16:29

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:26

It is all they have though.

I know - that is why I stop responding when I have made my point. It doesn't particularly matter on here, but it is scary to think there are people who are so blinkered on both sides at the heart of this conflict. How can peace ever be achieved if this is how the representatives of both sides think. Depressing.

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 16:28

@Aladdinzane Mosab Hassan Yousef (son of one the Hamas founders) has spoken about the issues, including at his speech to the UN.

It definitely, as he says, goes back before the 7th October Hamas terrorist attacks, but he explains (as someone who was a Hamas insider) how the cause is Hamas and related previous organisations and their ideology.

I'm not an expert but learning more (I was motivated to learn more after 7th October), the issues didn't start in 1948. Israel existed thousands of years ago but was under various occupations until regaining independence in the 20th century.

With the 1948 situation, isn't a large part of the land, that was known as Palestine at the time, now the kingdom of Jordan? (like Israel, a nation/country that was under various occupations or regimes, but has been in existence for centuries). Which makes me wonder. When the chant about river to sea is said, do those chanting it include Jordan as well as Israel in their desire? If so, what does Jordan think about that? Don't suppose it's something they want and assume it's a concern to Jordan as well as Israel? Unless if course it's not about land/nation states and is actually about antisemitism (or racism, as some posters have suggested would be a better term than 'antisemitism'.

Going back to OP's original post because I I've realised the direction of this thread has kind of proved her point. Any discussion about the history of antisemitism seems to inevitably include people doing Whataboutery about Israel. Why? OP noted the issue of racism against Jewish people has been a problem long before Israel regained independence in 1948. It goes back centuries.

YankSplaining · 23/06/2024 16:27

You’re not unreasonable - you’re aware of world history. As long as Jews have existed, people have been blaming them for the ills of the world and trying to either kill them or eject them from mainstream society.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:26

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 16:23

TL/DR

Ok here's a quick one for you from a computer scientist.

The Intel processor stands on the shoulders of temporal logic, a theoretical work of computer science developed in Israel. The theory what they use to build the tools that perform automatic verification on their chips.

No I didn't look that up.

Now go away and stop pretending to be clever.

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