Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 18:46

The last election was in 2006

Yes, but the last poll wasn't
This isn't the very latest one, but I chose it because it was conducted by a Palestinian organisation and reported by a thoroughly reputable source: www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-rise-support-armed-struggle-by-palestinians-2024-06-13/

And far from "blaming" the Palestinians themselves I really wish they'd chosen some other route and, as said, confronted the horror of Hamas while they still had the opportunity to make a difference - but they didn't and that was their choice

TrishM80 · 23/06/2024 18:45

The Israeli govt is comprised of some utterly odious, racist, disgusting fascists like Netanyahu, Gallant, Ben Gvir, Smotrich etc. yet if you criticise them, you're accused of being "antisemitic".

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 18:41

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 18:12

It is indeed sad, but then few will appreciate their obvious antisemitism being pointed out any more than other racists do, which may well be why so much filth has been deleted and why someone who mentioned swastikas being taken to marches - on a thread querying if jews are scapegoats - are told they're deflecting

Incredible really, but then this is why I said earlier there's no reasoning with mindless hatred and that all we can do is protect ourselves against it

Pretty much sums it up

ChallahPlaiter · 23/06/2024 18:40

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 10:42

Persecution of Jews didn't stop after the Holocaust. They were still being forced out of the Arab world. The shame you describe didn't last very long.

Ah but come on. Every cloud, right? Your people might have been exterminated en masse but at least everyone felt really guilty afterwards and wanted to be your friend! Same as how they did with disabled people, gay people, Gypsies, socialists. All the people who were victims of the Nazis definitely came out on top.

DayIntarnishedarmour · 23/06/2024 18:39

So surely it is important that people say that no we do not in general have a problem with Jewish people, we have no reason to have a problem with you....or do you actually think it's better to let that comment stand and let Jewish people think that their fears are justified and that absolutely everyone is hiding a deep hatred for them?

So I haven’t experienced any problem with Jewish people when I was called a ‘ Fucking Jew’ a few months ago?

And neither did the Jewish Chaplain at our university who has been moved to a safe house .

And neither did the men who have stopped wearing their yarmulkes on the way to synagogue as they were receiving so much abuse from people yelling at them from their cars, sticking two fingers up at them.

Or the 12 year old who was raped because she just happens to be Jewish in France?

Or the colleague who asked if ‘my’ people have a soul?

Or my 6 year old DGS who is only one of 2 Jewish kids in his primary school had a classmate shouting at him “Jewish”, with a mocking sneer on his face?

Or my late DF who was advised to put CofE on his call up papers before the war, because his life would be made hell when they found out he was Jewish ?

I could carry on but kkloo is sure my fears aren’t justified and my experiences are just Jews having a persecution complex . I am appalled. You generally don’t have a problem with Jews other than telling them they are lying liars who lie about the antisemitism they live with.

MoMo999 · 23/06/2024 18:38

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 18:36

@MoMo999

I thought you were boycotting Israel?

Still using your smartphone technology 24/7?

Brought to you by Israel!

Thanks for your support!

Ah can't answer the question so deflection on an irrelevant point. Who says all technology is Israeli - heard of China?

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 18:36

@MoMo999

I thought you were boycotting Israel?

Still using your smartphone technology 24/7?

Brought to you by Israel!

Thanks for your support!

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 18:36

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 18:24

Do you really think Palestinians would dare to voice disapproval of Hamas without fear of retribution?

I'm afraid they may have to if they ever wish to live in anything approaching peace, though it would have been much easier to do it before Hamas fully developed their stranglehold

Do you think this might have something to do with the extreme situation they are in?

To a certain extent perhaps, but then at least part part of the reason for their extreme situation has been their own enablement of the regime. After all it didn't become like this in a day, and if they preferred not to object as Hamas's aims were becoming clear they need to take some responsibility for what's followed

Tbf to Palestinians, they're in an awful situation. Mosab Hassan Yousef talks about how Hamas very violently forces Palestinians to 'comply'. He experienced serious violence as a young child as part of his 'training' and he talks about Hamas torturing and murdering Palestinians suspected of not going along with the ideology. It's very difficult I imagine.

He wants the rest of the world to recognise this and help Palestinians by opposing Hamas and by supporting Israel.

Jews are sometimes referred to as 'the canary in the coalmine'. This is because how Jews are being treated in a place/time indicates how views of 'others' are developing in that situation.

Mosab mentions this too. He's very articulate and speaks very powerfully.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 18:35

I also notice that some of those posting had multiple posts removed after being reported for anti-semitism on the last thread about Jewish people

Yes I'd noticed, @Bunnyasmyname, but it was unfortunately predictable since such threads appear to be catnip for this kind of thing

We've just been reminded that threads about Hamas's wickedness attract very few posts and this seems such a shame given the horrors we're told the folk of Palestine are suffering under them. Predictable again though, since the urge to slam Israel and its people often appears greater than the concern for those they profess to support

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 18:34

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:32

I say you don't know enough because you keep posting stuff that just isn't historically accurate.

Nah you're saying it because you watched a few tiktok videos, thought this would be a cool thing to jump on, but can't defend your viewpoint when it comes to it

Vittuunterroristit · 23/06/2024 18:34

bridgetreilly · 23/06/2024 18:24

I nowhere said or implied that.

Except you said October 7th was like someone fighting back against a bully so yeah you kind of did.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:32

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 18:27

@Aladdinzane

You keep saying I don't know enough. True actually. I'm still learning although there's lots of information out there.

So maybe I don't know enough, but I'd say Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the Hamas founders (a Palestinian himself and who has says he loves Palestinians as they're, as he says, his people) does.

He's a former Hamas insider. I'd say he knows and understands the current situation and the history of the region a lot more than you do.

I recommend you listen to his speech to the UN. He's also spoken in the past on the history of the conflict (before 7th October).

Yes, he's a strong defender of Israel and very scathing of Hamas (who he blames for the current conflict, sees as the real enemy of Palestinians rather than Israel, and he articulately explains why including their use of children as human shields), but his overall wish is for peace in the region.

Separately, why are British Jewish people being abused in the UK? What do they have to do with the current ME conflict? Why is there whataboutery and people saying "but Israel" almost every time there's a mention of antisemitic incidents and abuse in the UK? Why are Jewish people who experience antisemitism told they're exaggerating or imagining it?

I admitted yesterday I was naive about antisemitism until 7th October. As someone who isn't Jewish I suppose I wasn't affected and didn't really notice it. My concern about VAWG and shock about 7th October was what made me start to take notice of antisemitism in general. I can't unsee it now.

I say you don't know enough because you keep posting stuff that just isn't historically accurate.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:30

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 18:24

Do you really think Palestinians would dare to voice disapproval of Hamas without fear of retribution?

I'm afraid they may have to if they ever wish to live in anything approaching peace, though it would have been much easier to do it before Hamas fully developed their stranglehold

Do you think this might have something to do with the extreme situation they are in?

To a certain extent perhaps, but then at least part part of the reason for their extreme situation has been their own enablement of the regime. After all it didn't become like this in a day, and if they preferred not to object as Hamas's aims were becoming clear they need to take some responsibility for what's followed

I'm afraid they may have to if they ever wish to live in anything approaching peace, though it would have been much easier to do it before Hamas fully developed their stranglehold.

I think peace has to be a very two sided approach and the current method of ingnoring the actions of the Israeli government over decades and blaming the Palestinians and even their civilians ( as you do here) needs to change. The current Israeli action in Gaza has done nothing more than create thousands more young people who will want to fight.

"To a certain extent perhaps, but then at least part part of the reason for their extreme situation has been their own enablement of the regime. After all it didn't become like this in a day, and if they preferred not to object as Hamas's aims were becoming clear they need to take some responsibility for what's followed"

The last election was in 2006. This is now just blaming the civilian population for Hamas's actions.

Imagine if I'd said that the dead from the music festival were down to their own enablement of the regime?

The mask has well and truly slipped now.

amicissimma · 23/06/2024 18:28

Jews are sometimes referred to as 'the canary in the coalmine'. This is because how Jews are being treated in a place/time indicates how views of 'others' are developing in that situation.

As Jonathan Freedland put it in The Guardian in March 2018:

"Less tangibly, it’s the cast of mind, the way of thinking, that antisemitism represents that we should fear. Conspiracy theory, fake news, demonisation of an unpopular group: what happens to our politics if all these become the norm? This is why Jews have often functioned as a canary in the coalmine: when a society turns on its Jews, it is usually a sign of wider ill health.

Put another way, hasn’t history shown us that racism never stays confined to mere “pockets”? Once the virus is inside, it does not rest until it has infected the entire body."

Antisemitism matters: Jews are the canary in the coalmine | Jonathan Freedland

Conspiracy theories, fake news, demonisation of unpopular groups: if these become the norm, all of society suffers, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/30/antisemitism-jews-canary-coalmine-fake-news

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 18:27

@Aladdinzane

You keep saying I don't know enough. True actually. I'm still learning although there's lots of information out there.

So maybe I don't know enough, but I'd say Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the Hamas founders (a Palestinian himself and who has says he loves Palestinians as they're, as he says, his people) does.

He's a former Hamas insider. I'd say he knows and understands the current situation and the history of the region a lot more than you do.

I recommend you listen to his speech to the UN. He's also spoken in the past on the history of the conflict (before 7th October).

Yes, he's a strong defender of Israel and very scathing of Hamas (who he blames for the current conflict, sees as the real enemy of Palestinians rather than Israel, and he articulately explains why including their use of children as human shields), but his overall wish is for peace in the region.

Separately, why are British Jewish people being abused in the UK? What do they have to do with the current ME conflict? Why is there whataboutery and people saying "but Israel" almost every time there's a mention of antisemitic incidents and abuse in the UK? Why are Jewish people who experience antisemitism told they're exaggerating or imagining it?

I admitted yesterday I was naive about antisemitism until 7th October. As someone who isn't Jewish I suppose I wasn't affected and didn't really notice it. My concern about VAWG and shock about 7th October was what made me start to take notice of antisemitism in general. I can't unsee it now.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 18:27

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:23

You said it quoting my post so I asked what I had said that was?

Nothing. You have just been minimising anti-Semitism and saying it's not as prevalent as Jewish people say it is. Which I guess I can see how it happens if people only accept the "outright" stuff as being anti-Semitic and purposely ignore the more day-to-day anti-Semitic BS we have to deal with because of how normalised it has become.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 18:27

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:25

Better places that certain other posters?

Looks like TikTok is your source of facts.

bridgetreilly · 23/06/2024 18:26

EdithStourton · 23/06/2024 15:39

Blows my mind that a couple of threads outlining the abject wickedness of Hamas have attracted tops a few dozen posts, but one about antisemitism runs and runs and runs with lots of antisemitic and borderline-antisemitic comments being made.

The idea of Israeli Jews as white colonisers is such bullshit. Many of the European Jews who have arrived in Israel over the years have been fleeing persecution and antisemitism. Most of the Middle Eastern Jews who immigrated had been expelled from or fled countries where the Jewish community predated Islam.

But why let the facts get in the way?

Because everyone agrees how awful Hamas is, while some still think Israel is innocent?

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:25

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 18:24

One always wonders what motivates such 'Independents' as you to get their 'factual' PhD's on Israel/Palestine from

Better places that certain other posters?

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:25

MyrrAgain · 23/06/2024 18:24

Again, do shut up with your propaganda. Nothing is “verified”. Seriously, it’s very interesting to see what dipshittery and clowning comes up in these threads.
🤡🤡🤡🤡

So why have they banned journalists in Gaza?

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 18:24

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:23

Fact though.

One always wonders what motivates such 'Independents' as you to get their 'factual' PhD's on Israel/Palestine from

bridgetreilly · 23/06/2024 18:24

Vittuunterroristit · 23/06/2024 15:35

And because they had that "misfortune" it was fine for them to be raped kidnapped and killed?

I nowhere said or implied that.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 18:24

Do you really think Palestinians would dare to voice disapproval of Hamas without fear of retribution?

I'm afraid they may have to if they ever wish to live in anything approaching peace, though it would have been much easier to do it before Hamas fully developed their stranglehold

Do you think this might have something to do with the extreme situation they are in?

To a certain extent perhaps, but then at least part part of the reason for their extreme situation has been their own enablement of the regime. After all it didn't become like this in a day, and if they preferred not to object as Hamas's aims were becoming clear they need to take some responsibility for what's followed

MyrrAgain · 23/06/2024 18:24

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 13:51

I am not fan of the man or the radio station but James O'Brien on LBC did a very good show where he explained that actually Gaza Ministry of Justice and Health etc. figures are verified by an independent NGO. That Gazan ministries, unlike in other war zones go down the route of naming those killed and providing their ID records. He also noted that historically their figures have proved pretty accurate.

Conversely, he said Israeli figures are not verified and that certain of their claims have been proven false in the past. He stated the only plausible reason for banning journalists in Gaza is because it would expose the reality of what Israel is doing - it is hard to disagree with him on this point.

If some of the very long posts on here supporting atrocities when committed by Israel are designed to try and "educate or sway" the narrative, they don't. The reality is plain to see, as is the bias trying to provide cover for it.

Again, do shut up with your propaganda. Nothing is “verified”. Seriously, it’s very interesting to see what dipshittery and clowning comes up in these threads.
🤡🤡🤡🤡

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 18:23

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 18:23

It was a general statement in response to something you said about anti-Semitism, not me accusing you of being anti-Semitic. You're merely minimising it.

You said it quoting my post so I asked what I had said that was?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread