To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent

See my abuse point.

It's not reclaimed if it still causes significant offence to particular groups.

To be reclaimed there would be no controversy over it's meaning today.

Queer is back and people are proudly identifying themselves using it @Hinkuy .

God, that's sad.

Just to stress

Why is the lived experience of certain groups valid, but the lived experience of other groups invalid?

The common theme tends to be age.

Err, no. It's a reclaimed word and although some older gay people find it offensive, younger people use it to describe unconventional gender or sexual identities.

@AgathaAllAlong but some of them will be boys who fancy having breasts and using the girls' changing room. They don't have GD.

That's interesting. I know 3 girls and 1 boy who identify as trans. They are all ND. And the boy I would describe as having a more female presentation of ASD.

Indeed, it is theoretical. It is so theoretical that it has no relevance to gender dysphoria or trans identification.

No-one trans-identifying has suddenly woken up with unexpected body parts, so speculation about how you might feel if you had woken up with unexpected body parts has no relevance to people who are distressed about the body parts they have always had.

What's the point of this thought experiment though since it can't correspond to any reality?

I'm not an expert in this field so take the following with a pinch of salt, but isn't this plurality of potential causes the case for many mental disorders? For example, anorexia sufferers also are disproportionately survivors of abuse, but equally, some anorexia sufferers end up anorexic because of other causes. It seems to me there are different and multiple explanations for why someone might end up with gender dysphoria. I guess the question is, are any of these explanations reasons to be cautious , or conversely are any reasons to be extra affirmative?

I completely agree with you, though, in that there is a lot to research and it's too simplistic to treat as one group.

@hyuok in that situation, I would be exactly the same person, but I would be male. If I'd been born male, I would be the same person but with a different history and very different experiences.

We do know of course that growing up is a highly gendered experience, that people behave differently towards even foetuses and babies depending on their sex. Sex matters much less in developed societies than it ever did before in human history, but it always does matter in some circumstances. To say that anyone's body is 'wrong' seems so regressive to me. We're born in our own bodies, we are our bodies.

It's ageist to fail to acknowledge the experience of older homosexuals.

If we were talking about race and had a similar conversation...

Don't update your mindset. It's still completely unacceptable to many people. I was a young adult with friends who were beaten up by people using this word as a slur. It's as if someone said "now we have to call Black people the N word or Asian people the P word because someone told me it's been reclaimed". Please don't. You are retraumatising a whole lot of gay elders. I'm in my 50s and see this word a lot online but heard it for the first time a few months ago and it was just horrible to hear it again.

Anyway, back to the OP. I have seen explanations that many autistic people are not that bothered about conforming in general (probably true) and this carries over into being more gender non-conforming (also probably true) so don't find it as unusual to transition.

I find the last part a huge leap. If you didn't care about what society thought of you why not just be a girl who likes trains? Why does being gender non conforming make you a boy?

I suspect it's more likely a mixture of social contagion (naturally if you are autistic you will get on well with your neuro diverse tribe so will listen to what they say on things), special interests (the huge long list of genders with precise definitions is very similar to a huge long list of D&D characters/My Little Ponies/trains/dinosaurs/animal behaviour facts) and black and white thinking (if you aren't like other girls, you can't be a girl).

I find the evidence for biological differences weak at best.

TwattyMcFuckFace

but why do young people (many of them not even gay) who have not experienced the prejudice and abuse that older homosexuals faced get to reclaim a word that so many find offensive?

A couple of posters actually thought it was homophobic!!!

People used to go "queer bashing" ie assaulting gay men for sport, sometimes killing them.
Fancy thinking the term is homephobic 🙄

What do you think this means for the treatment of trans people?

@verygrumpy I don't believe that being in the DSM means it deserves respect and is accurate. I do t know the answer to this, but is Borderline Personaliyy Disorder in there? Because I feel that's the biggest pile of crap I ever heard and there is always something else going on, pretty much like this ridiculous FND diagnose they're now flogging like a dead horse.

My son is Autistic. He said what does ASD stand for. I told him and he said, wow that's really hurtful and massively offensive. I sat there thinking, I'm more disordered than he is on many things, so I get it. It isn't fair or right.

If a large proportion of Autistic people didn't have to conform to an NT world, much of which is absolutely nonsensical, then I believe they wouldn't be seen as so disordered or feel they are. There are many days however that I watch my son struggle and think, yes, you are disabled by this on some level. I'm NT so it's not my place to speak for ND people, this is based on our experience.

I don't know enough trans people to say the majority are ND. But every trans person I know is ND.

Thinking about it and playing along with the thought experiment if I woke up tomorrow with a cock and balls but my otherwise female body I'd feel like an oddity. If I woke up in a fully male body I would probably get used to it and I definitely would have no wish to put myself through hormone treatments and surgeries. It would be quite interesting having both the female and male experience in one lifetime.

The word 'Queer' has very much been reclaimed by younger people today.

I don't know if anyone saw 'Out Loud and Proud' on ITV the other night?

Adam Lambert was chatting to Brian May and Roger Taylor. He used the word 'queer' and both Brian and Roger said they would never have called Freddie that, as it was a massive slur back in his day, unlike today.

Sometimes winning

read the thread.

many older gay men (and some women) find it incredibly offensive and yes homophobic.
the fact that mostly straight young people and academics have ‘reclaimed’ it doesn’t change that.

Question: are we talking about a homogeneous group here or not.

Totally possible that out of a bunch of teens who identify as trans, some are abused and confused teens who looked to trans ideology as an escape route rather than deal with their trauma and they are not going to be trans in the long term AND a group of autistic kids struggling with social relationships and sexual feelings AND there to be someone with gender dysphoria AND there to be a kid with anorexic tendencies using this as a form of self harm.

The problem is if we don't see the range of possible explanations and we just call them 'trans kids', we can't help any of them and we risk various harms to every single one as an unintended consequences of that failure to consider multiple explanations.

Cass has identified this to be the case. Therefore it's totally wrong to refer to trans children or a young trans person. They have to be trans identifying so it can be explored first without an idea being imposed and set.

If I wake up one morning with a penis, I'd have to work out whether I'd gone insane and was hallucinating, or if magic existed.

Next question?

Please don't "both sides this" as this isn't true at all. The Cass Review was all about focusing on the needs of vulnerable teenagers at gender clinics. It's been opposed by the Greens and others who imagine they're being "kind" and "progressive" for doing so.

A great many people who question trans ideology (the "incredibly anti trans movements" as you put it; no, it's just people, many left wing, who are frustrated at not being listened to and shut down and abused for trying to whistleblow about vulnerable young people being pushed down irreversible medical pathways) have the vulnerable teenagers (mostly girls, mostly autistic, same sex attracted and a great many looked after children) who have been the fastest growing group seen at gender clinics.

Don't you DARE accuse women who have been fighting this bullshit for YEARS before people started noticing of not caring about this. The smears and constant lying about people's reasons for trying to raise the alarm has been a disgrace.