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To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent

486 replies

SlipperSliders · 22/06/2024 19:53

...and I sort of think it's a form of neurodivergence in itself.

By the way I'm trans affirmative.

I don't think I've met a trans person who I thought was neurotypical.

OP posts:
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15
Riversideandrelax · 23/06/2024 14:41

FrippEnos · 23/06/2024 14:35

dysphoria isn't confusion. but yes you can now be trans without being confused about gender.

So what exactly is gender dysphoria and how can you be trans without it?

FrippEnos · 23/06/2024 14:41

Having thought about this, my biggest concern from this thread is that the trans movement having seemingly targeted young ND people (cass report) is that they are now going to use it for more protection.

They have already gone through
Be kind
No debate
Suicide stats
A massive umbrella including huge groups of people
that they are the most abused and attacked group (physically and mentally)
Some where in there, there are comparisons to various minority groups and how they have suffered.
and now a move on to ND.

FrippEnos · 23/06/2024 14:35

Riversideandrelax · 22/06/2024 23:37

What do you mean? You can identify as trans without being confused about your gender?

dysphoria isn't confusion. but yes you can now be trans without being confused about gender.

TheKeatingFive · 23/06/2024 14:27

I don't think any stats have been shared. Not even dodgy ones.

FrippEnos · 23/06/2024 14:24

SlipperSliders · 22/06/2024 22:19

This argument about ND people transitioning to fit in..I find a bit ridiculous. Trans people are generally not welcomed. The stats on attacks on trans people are horrifying. I don't see how being trans would help anyone fit in socially.

are these stats from the same group that gave us the disproved suicide stats?

TheKeatingFive · 23/06/2024 14:12

thebrollachan · 23/06/2024 13:17

It's like the bastard child of consumerism and magical thinking isn't it? Whatever happened to a stiff upper lip/accepting God's will?

Exactly. When Lefty Utopianism meets Big Pharma.

God help us all

Tinylittleunicorn · 23/06/2024 13:18

DrBlackbird · 23/06/2024 12:13

@Tinylittleunicorn in the spirit of clarification, the term used is not intersex, it’s "Differences of Sex Development" (DSD) and if we’re talking about what’s offensive, those in the DSD community find the term intersex offensive as well as being falsely teamed with the GI/trans movement.

Thank you for correcting me on the terminology and I apologise for causing offence.

I'm in agreement I felt the previous poster was conflating DSD and trans identity through a sort of misunderstanding they have picked up about fetal sex development - whereas there is no evidence that trans identifying individuals are biologically distinct (in the way that people with DSD very clearly do have biological differences). That's a ramble I hope it makes sense!

thebrollachan · 23/06/2024 13:17

It's like the bastard child of consumerism and magical thinking isn't it? Whatever happened to a stiff upper lip/accepting God's will?

To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent
Killeditwithkisses · 23/06/2024 12:44

BackOfTheMum5net · 23/06/2024 09:50

There’s your answer, @Hinkuy .

I am surprised that the origins of the words use in a positive sense began as early as the 1980s. I am probably somewhere in age between the generation that found it offensive and the younger people who are enthusiastic users of the word.

I would not tell the earlier poster s/he has to identify as Queer, but not would I tell the LGBTQ+ people I know that they can’t. And I acknowledge that it was originally used in a cruel way, and when I heard friends using it to describe themselves I was surprised.

Words do change, and I think its reclamation is a positive step forwards, though I totally understand why an earlier poster finds it upsetting.

The word queer was definitely not used positively in the 80s. It was introduced to lgbtq initially in late 2000s to mean questioning- so as to give it a soft landing. Then it morphed into queer. It’s usually accompanied by patronising explanations of ohhh it’s ok we’ve reclaimed it now.

it’s offensive to the very people who made it possible for the word to be “reclaimed “ in the first place. It is ignorant of our history. Younger generations might think it’s cool to redefine the history of lgb people, but to me it just tells me that they are homophobic.

Hobbesmanc · 23/06/2024 12:37

HermioneWeasley · 22/06/2024 20:29

I don’t know any gay men of my generation who would ever call themselves the Q word. Y’know, because they actually lived through “queer bashing” and have the literal scars to prove it

I disagree. It's been reappropriated in main stream gay culture since the mid nineties. Queer as folk. Queer Nation. I understand that it's not everyone's favourite word but it's widely used by gay men and women across generations.

Pantaloons99 · 23/06/2024 12:22

No3387 · 23/06/2024 12:02

Your son is an articulate young man.

You do realise that all autistic people are not? Many do struggle day to day, will never speak, will never live independently etc

There's a growing consensus that only listening to the autistics who are able to be vocal, does those like the above a disservice.

Not all autistic people are like your son, or indeed my son. Or my daughter, or even me.

We need to respect all autistics, those who prefer 'i am autistic' AND 'i have autism'. And those who prefer ASC, or ASD.

Yes I do agree with you. I think your point is spot on. I try not police' other people on it. Based on my interactions with Autistic people, many see it as an identity rather than a defect hence ' I am Autistic '.

Every Autistic person is different like every NT person. The terminology makes this all complicated as we are inclined to lump everyone together.
There's also the fact there are often many co morbidities with Autism that makes it difficult to use one type of terminology. Sometimes it's difficult to separate what is Autism and what is a co morbid?

DrBlackbird · 23/06/2024 12:13

@Tinylittleunicorn in the spirit of clarification, the term used is not intersex, it’s "Differences of Sex Development" (DSD) and if we’re talking about what’s offensive, those in the DSD community find the term intersex offensive as well as being falsely teamed with the GI/trans movement.

About :: DSD Families

https://www.dsdfamilies.org/charity

No3387 · 23/06/2024 12:02

Pantaloons99 · 22/06/2024 23:18

@verygrumpy I don't believe that being in the DSM means it deserves respect and is accurate. I do t know the answer to this, but is Borderline Personaliyy Disorder in there? Because I feel that's the biggest pile of crap I ever heard and there is always something else going on, pretty much like this ridiculous FND diagnose they're now flogging like a dead horse.

My son is Autistic. He said what does ASD stand for. I told him and he said, wow that's really hurtful and massively offensive. I sat there thinking, I'm more disordered than he is on many things, so I get it. It isn't fair or right.

If a large proportion of Autistic people didn't have to conform to an NT world, much of which is absolutely nonsensical, then I believe they wouldn't be seen as so disordered or feel they are. There are many days however that I watch my son struggle and think, yes, you are disabled by this on some level. I'm NT so it's not my place to speak for ND people, this is based on our experience.

Edited

Your son is an articulate young man.

You do realise that all autistic people are not? Many do struggle day to day, will never speak, will never live independently etc

There's a growing consensus that only listening to the autistics who are able to be vocal, does those like the above a disservice.

Not all autistic people are like your son, or indeed my son. Or my daughter, or even me.

We need to respect all autistics, those who prefer 'i am autistic' AND 'i have autism'. And those who prefer ASC, or ASD.

DrBlackbird · 23/06/2024 11:47

Treelichen · 22/06/2024 23:40

The same argument can be used for some racial slurs. Some people still find them offensive but the majority have reclaimed certain words. I'd argue that all these previously offensive terms be binned but it's not me reclaiming them.

That the majority has reclaimed certain [racist] words will come as a surprise to the man fired for using one of those in the context of asking what do if he heard a staff using it. I think suggesting that a majority find it fine to use certain words due to them being reclaimed is a somewhat sweeping and inaccurate presentation that could lead to a lot of deeply offensive comments being made.

Banker awarded £490k in N-word unfair dismissal case

A former Lloyds Bank employee who won his case for unfair dismissal after he was fired for using the N-word during a training session has been awarded

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/banker-awarded-490k-in-n-word-unfair-dismissal-case/

alittleprivacy · 23/06/2024 11:16

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2024 10:13

I just don't agree that sexuality involves only sex and not gender. I am not sexually attracted to transwomen at all, even though they are biologically male. It's not obvious to me that this is just some massive coincidence, it seems rather to be a facet of sexuality.

Either way though the point is that the people using the term about themselves don't feel that "bi" defines them. I'm not about to use a word about them that they would reject about themselves. Perhaps there is a better word out there somewhere, or one needs to be invented.

Being straight doesn't mean being attracted to all people of the opposite sex. Being gay doesn't mean being attracted to everyone of the same sex. Being bi doesn't mean being attracted to all people on earth. Most people are in fact, only sexually attracted to a very, very small amount of the people but if all the people they are sexually attracted to are the opposite sex they are straight, same sex they are gay, both sexes they are bi.

It doesn't matter a damn whether you agree or not that sexuality only involves the sex of who you are attracted to. It is an objective fact, it's not open to subjective feeling any more so than whether we like to think that some cats are actually dogs. Facts are facts, not wanting to accept them doesn't change objective reality, it just makes our feelings a bit silly

Toseland · 23/06/2024 11:04

I just wonder if some transphobic people may hate less if they realised that they are being hateful to a group of marginalised ND people.
Here we are with the accusations of 'hate' again! You'd probably consider me to be transphobic. I'm not being hateful, I just don't believe in 'trans' in any way - it's a lie.

Toseland · 23/06/2024 11:01

It's so sad to see young people being told a whole load of crap and having surgeries and dangerous medicines.

You can't feel like a man or a woman - you just are a man or a woman!

All the kids that are quirky, free-thinkers, non-conforming, gay, autistic, don't fit in, the kind of kids that grow up into great British eccentrics and trailblazers are being sold a massive lie and being told that they are 'wrong' and surgically experimented on to make them conform to old-fashioned 1950s sterotypes, at the same time as sterilising them and leaving them with no sexual function. It's disgusting.

Claiming that you are non-binary and are not male or female, means that you consider me, as a woman, as 'conforming to female sterotypes' which is utterly insulting.

Calling yourself queer shows a complete disregard for older gay people - you should be ashamed if you are doing this.

mybeesarealive · 23/06/2024 10:47

A lot of people getting het up over language around queer, ASD, Asperger's (also controversial because of his discovered Nazi connections) et cetera. It demonstrates the total cul de sac and waste of time of identity politics and its aggressive policing of offence (and the causing of offence).

Men cannot become women. Women cannot become men. Gender identities are a cultural construct. Trans identities are rooted in psychology (they may be sincere but it's a belief unmoored from reality). It's not the same as same sex attraction and does a disservice to same sex equality rights to lump it in and to try to short circuit the debate by piggy backing on the social acceptance of same sex relationships, which is recent and not yet itself fully rooted.

Trans activism is very often men harassing women who do not accept them as women. It is misogynistic and stifling in its demand that everyone accept trans ideology as fact, and its relentless denunciation of non believers.

That's what I think anyway. Don't care if that upsets others. It's freedom of speech.

Naunet · 23/06/2024 10:27

glittercunt · 22/06/2024 20:07

I'm quietly proud to consider myself enby, my body, my life, my choice, and so many reasons.

And I'm ND.

And I've a massive social network of other alternative, ND queers.

It's a huge area of study I wish I had the degree to be undertaking at post grad level; the way various things from autoimmune and genetic conditions/ disabilities intersect with being non heterosexual or otherwise identifying as queer/ gender queer, and those intersecting with being ND...

But it's important that people don't equate someone being ND as meaning their sexuality or gender identity is therefore somehow invalid.

No two disabled ND queer folk are identical.

Queer? Non binary makes you ‘queer’, or being with someone of the opposite sex does? Can’t help but wonder if you are actually homosexual, or just appropriating language (offensive language at that).

FinanceLPlates · 23/06/2024 10:20

RedToothBrush · 22/06/2024 21:18

This is deeply offensive.

You can't be born in the wrong body. And having been a child in a family where my mother did this, and totally fucked up both of us by projecting her sexism onto us and gaslighting us into believing there was something wrong with us, I strongly suggest you think about what you are saying.

Are disabled people 'born in the wrong body?'

What is gender? Describe it without using sexist stereotypes. I am serious. This is sexism.

Why is it that certain hobbies and interests pop up all the time? Why anime? Whats the deal with that? OVER AND OVER AND OVER Again. Strangley Japanese culture is one of the most heavily gender stereotyped cultures in the world.

Then there's Cass. The Cass Review literally says that yes there is a link between abuse and trans identifying. And being autistic.

So are trans people autistic? Or are autistic kids picking up on cultural ideas, getting carried away with them - egged on by social networks online which encourage this - precisely because they are more vulnerable because they are lacking in real world social networks and normal social interactions.

Heres the difficult bit. All the people saying they are 'trans affirmative' - so where does that leave you in terms of detransitioners. The range of detransition seems to range from upwards of 50 - 90% in young adults. It takes a number of years to detransition but it is happening on a much wider scale than many are willing to admit.

WHY? This is the million dollar question we must address.

We can't say that being trans is a form of neurodiversity if we have that going on. You can't suddenly cease to be neurodivergent. The trans stuff is a by product of SOMETHING which is more likely to manifest in someone neurodiverse.

I would argue its possibly a symptom of neurodiversity and neurodiverse teens and young people are looking for something and trans seems to be a magic solution (until its suddenly not) because of the social networking aspect to it (my experience of online community bubbles is that they tend to have a life span of about 5 - 8 years before they burst and people go their separate ways in real life (I've been in social media communities since 1998).

If so many are transitioning, why are we medicalising so early?

There are HUGE issues that Cass asks about in terms of vulnerabilities, comorbidities and other needs - such as a history of trauma and abuse that are going unaddressed PRECISELY because all the focus is put onto transition and not onto looking into other parallel and agacent issues.

My biggest beef here, is that there is no ability of people who prattle on about trans-affirmative and label everything they disagree with as transphobic. There is no willingness to even consider the possibility that people raising concerns have massive questions about it all BECAUSE THEY CARE, not because they hate anyone at all. Its always framed as this.

And I say all this, because age 19 I was talking like all of this. I was saying I should have been a boy. I hated being a woman. Etc etc. Its text book. And I am sooo sooo grateful I wasn't born years later. It took me a LONG time to finally come to terms with being a woman. I think I ended up coping for years, but I only really was at peace with it in my later 30s.

This is such a complex and difficult subject. Reducing it to trans affirmative versus transphobic as a binary either or, is frankly ignorant and harmful and deeply offensive.

I found your post very well written @RedToothBrush and explaining something well that I’ve been struggling to put into words. However I think you’ve misunderstood @SlipperSliders post - I read it as her being ironic and exasperated with the “wrong body” narrative that her young children were vulnerable to. Especially because of their neurodivergence, compounded by the strange experience of lockdown and being sucked into an online world.

AgathaAllAlong · 23/06/2024 10:13

drspouse · 23/06/2024 08:43

That's easy, that person is bi. Sexuality involves sex. Only sex.
Someone who is female, married to a man, and doesn't like dresses is NOT "queer", she is straight.

It's incredibly insulting to your gay elders to use the term for people who are never going to be persecuted for their sexuality and whose minor quirks of dress and name are not going to cause any eyelids to be batted unless they raise a fuss.

I just don't agree that sexuality involves only sex and not gender. I am not sexually attracted to transwomen at all, even though they are biologically male. It's not obvious to me that this is just some massive coincidence, it seems rather to be a facet of sexuality.

Either way though the point is that the people using the term about themselves don't feel that "bi" defines them. I'm not about to use a word about them that they would reject about themselves. Perhaps there is a better word out there somewhere, or one needs to be invented.

3DayStockpiler · 23/06/2024 09:52

Demonhunter · 22/06/2024 21:55

Yep my autistic teen thinks it's all a load of shite and has no time for it, thinks they're boring attention seekers. Actually all the genuine ND teens I know (family and kids of friends) think it's total hogwash. That's not to say that many young people that DO think they're trans aren't ND, but people like OP need to be mindful that statements that sound like a sweeping generalisation of connecting ND people with the gender bollocks, is really harmful and offensive to ND people who don't buy into it.

I think this raises many difficulties especially in places like schools where people are thrown together. How do you reconcile the needs of one group of nd people who can not see it as anything other as a load of bollocks and are unable to join in a polite pretence, even finding doing so to be distressing and another group of people who feel they're being harmed if their identities are not affirmed.

BackOfTheMum5net · 23/06/2024 09:50

There’s your answer, @Hinkuy .

I am surprised that the origins of the words use in a positive sense began as early as the 1980s. I am probably somewhere in age between the generation that found it offensive and the younger people who are enthusiastic users of the word.

I would not tell the earlier poster s/he has to identify as Queer, but not would I tell the LGBTQ+ people I know that they can’t. And I acknowledge that it was originally used in a cruel way, and when I heard friends using it to describe themselves I was surprised.

Words do change, and I think its reclamation is a positive step forwards, though I totally understand why an earlier poster finds it upsetting.

To think that the majority of trans people are neurodivergent
Durdledore · 23/06/2024 09:42

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2024 22:13

One key problem has been to lump everyone who identifies as trans as all being the same and having the same needs (homogenous).

Yup. It shifts one's understanding very significantly to understand the various groups that are being lumped together under a 'trans' umbrella

Gender non conforming people
Confused teenagers
Genuine dysphorics
AGP men
Predatory men

Whose interests are we serving by grouping these very different cohorts together?

I agree with PPs that there aren’t loads of women in their 40s rushing to transition, but where I live I know two women who have done just that - with double mastectomies and hormone treatments.

I don’t know them beyond acquaintance level so I don’t know their reasoning as to whether they are what you call genuine dysphorics - there maybe needs another category added on for them. They often get overlooked because the loudest trans adults by far are men.