6 year child - stranger talking about her penis

Hmm, I am absolutely not a fan of gender ideology (though have no problem with trans individuals) and I think this was inappropriate of this person - however I an on the fence about whether they were deliberately being dodgy or were just clumsy in their explanation. Just thinking a child may not understand what is meant by "I was born a man" - so I can imagine myself putting it in context to a child by saying they were born with a willy (in other words they are biologically male) but now think of themselves as female. It's not right though - I just wouldn't be sure if it was intentionally dodgy or not!

I definitely think you've done the right thing to explain to your dd that adults talking about their genitals to her is not right and she should leave the situation and tell you if that ever happens. And I wouldn't have my child around this person again.

However I'd agree with not rushing to report to HR, partly as it may have been clumsy rather than malicious, and partly to protect yourself if the organisation is very Stonewalled. My organisation is quite Stonewall-y and I have a personal rule that I'll speak up if it's really going to help things, but I'm also careful to protect myself and won't be getting into arguments that will just backfire on me. I'm very careful about what I say and to whom.

Ignoring what was said to your daughter (which I took to be weird but probably down the TW trying to dumb down a complex conversation. They could have kicked off as being openly recognised a man, but they didn't) please don't make the mistake of thinking that just cos a man is wearing 'women's' clothes that they are AGP.

I used to adore Eddie Izzard when he declared 'they are not women's clothes, they are my clothes. I bought them' & declared 'equal clothing rights'. Now I think he's an enormous prick, but that's by the by.

Being AGP, having dysphoria & just wearing what you like (have you worn trousers lately? Were you pretending to be a man when you did?) are 3 very separate things, don't conflate them. One negatively affects women, one requires the sufferer to seek help & support & the third positively benefits men by allowing them to dress as they please with 'equal clothing rights'. It's also been a long used way for gay men to express themselves.

I would probably be considered GC fwiw

Since absolutely no one is suggesting making it illegal for men to dress as women, why do you keep returning to it?

Do none of you have teenagers?

Not yet, no. I have nieces that are far more vociferous against this nonsense than I am.

What I mean is, a man or transwoman in a dress may have all sorts of issues and motivations but it's not a simple 2 + 2 = 4 thing.

There will be many men in dresses who do no harm at all. We need to fight for their rights too don't we. Notwithstanding women's needs.

But we can't make it illegal for men to dress as women - is all I'm saying. This is about meaning and that's why it's so hard to manage.

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

I didn't say he was. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress.

However a man asking others to 'affirm' him as a woman because he 'identifies' as one and asking for rights to their spaces - would be a demonstration of the above

Or perhaps additionally a deeply confused, lost individual who have lost their way entirely and needs help. Though that would probably borderline on mental illness.

And no, I don't think any of this is good for society and I'm not afraid to say that.

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

Pronouns in workplaces are clearly on the decline and thank goodness for that.

A pluralistic society needs people like me who can work in the middle of issues - this is where most of us live.

Thing is, you aren't 'working in the middle' if you prioritise men's rights to 'identify' as women and talk about their penises to little girls over the safety and dignity of women and children. You're basically a men's rights activist.

Maybe you live in a place where you can go on a March without any consequences.

What are you even talking about. What consequences. It might be interesting to note at this point that I grew up in Northern Ireland, so I know plenty about matches with 'consequences' thanks.

That's where we are, I was asked to have she/her pronouns on my signature at my last job. This new world isn't going anywhere so we need to find ways to deal with it - that's all I'm saying.

It won't ever happen in my current role, but the way I would deal with it is to say "No, I am not adding my pronouns". If someone needs to know my sex or gender (which are entirely irrelevant to the job I do) then they can ask me.

I certainly can't see a world where I would need to tell an unknown child that I have a vagina.

I'm not sure honesty is always a virtue anyway. Would we praise a pedophile for 'being honest' to a child about what their desires are? No. We'd simply want them to keep the hell away.

Also this man was at least honest

Wow, the bar is truely on the fucking floor for men. Unbelievable.

TheKeatingFive

"I don't see anything progressive about letting men 'identify' as women or tolerating men talking about their penises to little girls. What this is - is prioritising men's fetishes and/or mental health problems over the rights and safety of women and children.

That is definitely not positive for society and I'll keep fighting against it"

You sound a bit of a dictator talking about what you will "tolerate". And sorry for waffling ( rude for no reason ).

There is nothing parked about my brain but thanks for your honesty in expressing your lack of patience in dealing with a complex subject.

A pluralistic society needs people like me who can work in the middle of issues - this is where most of us live.

Maybe you live in a place where you can go on a March without any consequences.

All the best with that

So I can see all sides but I think the child that heard this at least got an honest answer.

This is irrelevant. It it not appropriate for an adult to talk to an unknown child about their genitals.
You don't get to override that in the name of progress, honesty or inclusiveness.

The more I read about AGP the more I understand it is sexual fetish. Therefore having any person (who on my assumption only, has AGP) around my little girl who has outward displays of sexual fetishisation obviously now makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, and knowing what I know now to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

Public exhibition of any fetish is exploitative as it recruits all observers as participants in someone's else's sexual gratification without consent.

We are here - so we need to engage with where we are realistically. Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

Absolutely no one has suggested that - don't be silly 🙄

OP, I'm not sure if this is a HR matter either. As it wasn't a work event (or not officially).

So I'd simply make sure your child is never in the company of this person again. And I'd keep a very close eye on him just generally.

H*ermenmunster
*
I think something said to a child (potentially in good faith) is a world away from a person touching your child in a pool; this kind of correlation is so extreme that it just kills discussion.

It's intellectually lazy - another problem in debating such an emotive subject. People just get triggered into extreme responses.

I feel uncomfortable with biological men in women's clothes full stop. But I do believe in an open expressive society and our present situation is that we do not all agree on what man and woman means.

That's where we are, I was asked to have she/her pronouns on my signature at my last job. This new world isn't going anywhere so we need to find ways to deal with it - that's all I'm saying.

We obviously have to continue to be vigilant at the pool.

1] touching a child in a pool inappropriately is not legal

2] wearing a dress to a party is legal

3] saying penis to a child is not sexual assault

We are here - so we need to engage with where we are realistically. Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

I don't want to live in that world either.

There is a LOT of waffle here.

However, while the support of people expressing themselves is fine (and I doubt anyone on here would disagree).

I feel that too many people have parked their brains in the name of 'progress'.

I don't see anything progressive about letting men 'identify' as women or tolerating men talking about their penises to little girls. What this is - is prioritising men's fetishes and/or mental health problems over the rights and safety of women and children.

That is definitely not positive for society and I'll keep fighting against it

@hermenmumster
I wouldn't approach HR and I'd be very careful which colleagues I spoke to about this. Maybe just those with young children.
You are likely to be marked as a transphobe and a gossip with bad intentions. Especially as you say, you didn't directly see/hear the incident.

What I would do is watch and wait. Start documenting every time this person says or does something inappropriate. Because he will. I'd take care not to use the toilets the same time as him or use a different one to the one he uses. I wouldn't engage in any personal conversation at all with him. If he starts discussing his personal life just turn on your heel and walk away. Or pick up the phone and start talking and ignoring him.

Even work colleagues with children may not recognise the risks, as you say your workplace is very embedded in stonewall culture. The extent to which some people won't deviate from what they consider to be inclusive is illustrated in this podcast at 23:20
Andrew Gold discusses how he met a woman in Germany who works with men who admit they are attracted to children but don't act on it. So to prove her faith in them she lets them babysit her own children. 🤦‍♀️

It's quite a good podcast overall although I'm not a huge fan of Andrew Gold. He's jumping on too many bandwagons to build his audience.

So don't expect colleagues to see your point of view - you are more likely to be scolded just as you have been on this thread.

If you have a rainbow lanyard now is the time to bin it and buy yourself a neutral one.

Im trying to be neutral as I have young people in my life who require a certain neutrality when debating all these things. I'm trying to see all sides because I think that works for me; I'm not requiring anyone else does the same.

Progress in this area seems most likely to occur where people are open minded and hearted.

I was brought up in the 70s and 80s where children and women & powerless men could be used as objects by men who could get away with it - no one ever needs to tell me about concealed sexual motivation in exploitative men.

We are evidently in a culture now where certain assumed rights are in conflict with newer assumed rights.

I have seen almost enough of the extremes of this debate now - and I don't disrespect anyone who is still in the trenches or the validity of their feelings - but, I also now feel that progress in more likely in the middle ground; notwithstanding all the problems you raise. I live with young people who do not see the world the way I see it, they have never been sexually exploited, they have not been aware of sexual exploitation close to them, so they feel the identity issue is sacrosanct and also they have that innocence and trust of people before they have kids.

I think we are in a new world and maybe have to try to consider seeking to move towards balancing these new pressures more efficiently somehow - I'm not saying there are no issues! I'm just being realistic IMO. As I live with people who have a different world view. I'm not saying they're right or that I am right. I live in a world of changing names and identities in the young which is hard to master. When your kids bring this issue home in the bodies of the dearest friends - then you have to deal with it. These young people are just lovely. You can't legislate this out of the culture.

The Good Friday agreement came out of a laying down of arms and accepting very different views of the facts.

You ask is it ok for a man to discuss his penis with a child at a party?

Well, no honestly I don't feel great about it; but, on the other hand - at least this is open and honest to an extent. When I was a child the bad actors were all hidden in plain sight and getting away with murder.

Also this man was at least honest.

I grew up with negative experiences of men dressing as women - I hated panto, I find drag uncomfortable but the individuals might be perfectly lovely people.

I don't want to live in a world where no one can express themselves in how they dress either. I love living in a fairly open society.

So I can see all sides but I think the child that heard this at least got an honest answer. It is about what being a woman or a man means at the end of the day and it's always been hard to legislate meaning and it's clearly hard to do at the moment wihich is why debate is so valuable.

Identity and meaning are not fixed things but our culture is clearly changing and it's uncomfortable for those who feel the status quo is the best quo.

Sex is fixed. Always has been, always will be.

And the vast majority are not going to simply accept some bullshit notion that sex is not significant.

The pushback is starting