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6 year child - stranger talking about her penis

434 replies

hermenmumster · 20/06/2024 09:58

Trigger warning : sensitive topic around Gender Identity

I was at a work event (private garden - bring family along deal) and someone there is a transgender woman- she was tall, bearded ,hirsuite and wearing a dress and heels.
My daughter (6) was roaming around with the other kids and i think must have asked the lady why she was wearing a dress.
She explained that she ´was born a man with a willy , and is now a lady ’

Something jarred in me about a grown person talking about gentalia to a 6 year old child.
What does the mumsnet think?
AIBU to be annoyed?

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 11:05

CharlotteBog · 21/06/2024 11:03

Even though I wouldn't like it if he said that to my dd age 6. I might feel ok with it as he is trying to communicate the paradox of his identity.

I really don't want my 6 year old to be at the other end of anyone trying to communicate the paradox of their identity. They can resolve their communication problems with other adults.

Exactly this. How did we get to a place where people think it's okay to involve children in these affairs. In what universe should that be their job? 🫠

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 11:03

TheKeatingFive

In answer - I am not sure what the positive social change will look like. All I mean is - we are here and it will come out of here - not out of our ideas of an ideal world.

The young will be in charge soon and they will make the rules and then adjustments will follow and then we will struggle on. I don't think this gender thing is going anywhere. So not that we just roll over but that we work positively, lovingly snd realistically into the future. I don't have an alternative as I live with young people and we are a harmonious group. They learn from me and so learn from them

CharlotteBog · 21/06/2024 11:03

Even though I wouldn't like it if he said that to my dd age 6. I might feel ok with it as he is trying to communicate the paradox of his identity.

I really don't want my 6 year old to be at the other end of anyone trying to communicate the paradox of their identity. They can resolve their communication problems with other adults.

jeaux90 · 21/06/2024 11:02

My comments earlier up got deleted, what I said was this was a man displaying his fetish in public and breaking boundaries by talking to a child about his genitalia.

Wearing a dress, fine, gaslighting and breaking boundaries with a kid by calling himself a woman, talking about his penis, not ok.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 11:01

Saying penis out loud isn't necessarily a terrible thing. I wonder if we can be a bit puritanical?

It isn't. If you're in a relationship with someone or a parent educating their child or a doctor examining someone.

But context is all. Saying it to a six year old girl you don't know IS pretty terrible if you ask me. What motivation could there be in doing that?

I mean, if a grown man I'd never met before started talking about his penis to me, that would be a big red flag and I'd move away sharpish. It's much worse in the case of a child.

So just to clarify, you think it's positive social change to de stigmatise talking about penises to strangers - is that what you're saying?

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 21/06/2024 11:01

I also believe it's hard to be in a truly pluralistic society without everyone potentially having to put up with things they find uncomfortable and even wrong.

Women have been putting up with things we find uncomfortable and even wrong for millennia now, Allshallbewell2021.

Expecting us - and children - to put up with our safety and well-being being compromised even more is not the way forward

It’s not progress; it’s the status quo at best, if not actively regressive.

Take the made up dynamic of trans/not trans out of the equation and you leave behind the real power dynamics: male/female; adult/child.

Those who have traditionally been powerless and marginalised; those who are through physiological reality more physically vulnerable, should not be expected to suffer further discomfort and curtailment of our rights and opportunities to benefit those who enjoy the privilege and power granted to them by their adult male status.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 10:56

I agree the man should not say penis to the child.

The man is illustrating to the child - I look like a man and I have a penis but I am a woman.

This is the crux of it isn't it? What does 'woman' mean?

Even though I wouldn't like it if he said that to my dd age 6. I might feel ok with it as he is trying to communicate the paradox of his identity. I don't assume every man in a dress is AGP any more than I look at all the men I meet and think about their sexual interests.

I think now, I wouldn't be that freaked out but there was a time that I would have been.

But if my daughter was in a swimming competition with a male bodied person - then I would be beside myself I imagine. If my d was in a prison cell with a maile bodied person, then so would be too. Saying penis out loud isn't necessarily a terrible thing. I wonder if we can be a bit puritanical?

Demonhunter · 21/06/2024 10:55

PaulAnkaTheDoggo · 21/06/2024 01:11

Why can’t people just go down the middle and say ‘their’ rather than completely misgendering? Why are people so caught up in ‘sex is determined at birth’ to just accept terminology probably needs a bit of work but being transGENDER IS a thing.

I have a lot of issues with trans women in female spaces, jobs etc. But the deliberate use on this forum to misgender is frankly disgusting. It’s a deliberate point, rather than even attempting to be ambiguous.

So what you're saying is that you don't think gender is synonymous with sex, as has been the case for decades, with the word gender introduced because of the erotic connotations that they attached to the word sex. You believe in gendered souls and that a woman is a feeling and a bunch if stereotypes that men can SEE and emulate and therefore they have the right to use the words woman, she and her and muddy the waters over who should be where. And they haven't just claimed the word woman, they've claimed the word FEMALE. So say you have an issue with them in female spaces all you want, they'll just say they're female.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 10:54

Someone upthread mentioned how i would feel if a grown conventional male mentioned his penis to her. I would be plain livid and less confused

This is a very telling quote.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 10:52

I think positive social change often starts in conflict but it integrates in the actions and behaviour of people motivated by love and compassion. We don't make the world better either hate IME.

Well let me cut to the chase and ask you this. Do you see men 'identifying' as women and having access to exactly the same spaces/services women have as 'positive social change'?

If not, what is the positive social change you think we should be aiming for here?

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 21/06/2024 10:52

hermenmumster · 20/06/2024 11:48

i guess I don't want to get into the trans debate. How people want to live their life is their business. It is about mentioning a penis to my child. Someone upthread mentioned how i would feel if a grown conventional male mentioned his penis to her. I would be plain livid and less confused

I think this shows how dangerous all this is. You’ve acknowledged that if this man wasn’t claiming to be a special kind of “woman” man, you would have much stronger boundaries, and be able to see clearly how inappropriate his behaviour was.

You wouldn’t be “a bit annoyed” (which was the only way in which I thought you were being unreasonable - for under-reacting), you’d be “plain livid”.

But because this man is claiming to be a woman, the usual rules don’t apply to him. And it’s hampering your ability to safeguard your child/other children.

This man was talking to your DD as if they were peers, rather than unrelated adult and child: at the very least, that’s a denial of the power differential between adults and children, and an unawareness of the responsibility of adults to behave in an appropriate way around kids, because of that power differential.

Which is a safeguarding risk in itself.

Clearly we can’t know his motivation, but as you’ve recognised, he may have AGP, in which case he was performing his fetish in the presence of your child, and at worst, he’s a man who gets a sexual kick out of talking about his male genitalia to a female child. Which is obviously a much more serious safeguarding risk.

It is well-evidenced that men who enjoy cross-dressing are more likely than the average man to have other sexual paraphilias too; and yet we are living in a time where - despite our supposed focus on child safeguarding and issues of consent - we are expected to extend the benefit of the doubt to men who cross-dress in public more than to other men.

I realise that you are going to protect your child by not taking her to any more work events where he might be present, but I wonder whether your actions would be different if this were a man who doesn’t claim to be anything other than a man. I understand why you feel you can’t report this to HR given the culture of your company, but it would be good to think about whether you would if this was a man who didn’t claim a trans identity.

Because obviously if he’s being invited to “family friendly” work do’s, he’s potentially going to come into contact with other people’s children too. And you should be able to flag up this kind of behaviour as an issue, whereas it seems likely that the very most you’d be able to do would be quiet words with other parents, only the ones you think wouldn’t denounce you for “transphobia” of course.

And in this way we’ve moved back several decades: it’s like the times when sexual harassment in the workplace was ubiquitous and women’s only defence was telling each other to be careful of so and so, and try not to be alone with him etc.

Even though we’re now supposed to be living in a culture with vastly more awareness of safeguarding and protecting the vulnerable.

That’s what I mean by saying how dangerous this all is. It lowers boundaries, which increases risk. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 10:47

Thank you TheKeatingfive.

I certainly don't want to be open-minded at any cost but I also believe it's hard to be in a truly pluralistic society without everyone potentially having to put up with things they find uncomfortable and even wrong.

I think the gender issue appears to have clear rights and wrongs to many.

I am less certain than I was.

We are an integrated society and the only place to start from is from where we are now.

I think positive social change often starts in conflict but it integrates in the actions and behaviour of people motivated by love and compassion. We don't make the world better either hate IME.

Change is painful. I don't know how we will integrate these new views of human life but I am sure it can be done. There are some tricky areas but look at the quiet power of the Cass report. The slow relentless power of those American female swimmers.

I think we do need to adjust to these times and see what can be done over time. These things are so entrenched that the answers will have to evolve.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 10:38

Sorry, to add ...

What I think you're saying here is that you believe that men should be free to express themselves as they want, which can include wearing dresses. And we're all in agreement on that.

Where it seems to get fuzzy is being able to put down some firm boundaries. So the man mentioning his penis to a young girl. Absolutely not acceptable and needs to be called out strongly.

The fact that we can support men wearing dresses shouldn't impact our ability to draw a firm line where it needs to be drawn. Being open minded here is not a positive - not if it impacts our ability to safeguard young children.

TheKeatingFive · 21/06/2024 10:30

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 10:05

I am genuinely trying to be more open minded; I'm not trying to say what happened n OP's post is a great thing.

I think there are huge issues with the idea that you can identify into a different sex from your birth sex. I have huge concerns about women's spaces, women's sport and child safe guarding. These all depend on the ability to be clear about biological gender - this clarity is being blurred by youthful pangenderism, medical madness, pharmaceutical greed, woke pandering and genuinely badly intentioned sexual predators and adventurers.

It's such a festival of different motivations and the good are mixed in with the bad. Women, children and lesbians are not the winners here.

But I still want to be more open minded as my kids have made me less pedantic. They also share some of my concerns.

But on the positive side women's sport is starting to get its act together. The Tavistock debacle is now reported on and having an impact. Greater awareness of AGP is helping to show why women fear self ID and Access All Areas transwomen.

Women in prison are one of the groups I have huge concerns about where the definition of what a women means is crucial. I still don't think you should be in a cell with a person who is biologically male regardless of how you define your gender.

No one should say penis to a child - obviously - but the debate comes down to people believing that they have a penis and are a woman. Like Eddie Izzard.

It does matter.

Im glad you posted this, it clarifies your position a lot and I'm in agreement with you on about 95%.

The thing I find interesting however is your reassertion that you want to be 'open minded' - you say it a few times. Yet at the same time you say this ...

It's such a festival of different motivations and the good are mixed in with the bad. Women, children and lesbians are not the winners here.

Which sums it up perfectly - you're right, women lesbians and children are not the winners.

So why are you so invested in this 'open mindedness' if you acknowledge it isn't helping key vulnerable groups in society?

Open mindedness as a broad concept isn't necessarily a good thing. I don't want society to become more open minded towards bestiality or pedophilia or necrophilia for example. Do you? I doubt it.

TLDR. I don't think we should prioritise open mindedness over what's good for society. Pushing the boundaries around acceptability isn't always a positive thing.

hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 10:14

@OneTC when it is presented like this it is all the more concerning. Uncomfortable to read it but important

OP posts:
Imtheotherguy · 21/06/2024 10:13

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:53

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

Indeed.

And had the man answered the little girl’s question with “because I like this dress”, or “because pink is my favourite colour” or something else a 6 year old girl would understand it would have been fine.

There is no such thing as men’s clothes or women’s clothes- if I own it it’s woman's, if my son owns it it’s a man’s- whether the garment has an inseam is irrelevant.

The difference here is that he brought his genitalia into the discussion totally unnecessarily- which could be from not having enough experience/understanding of children but could also be because he enjoys making a child think about his dick. Personally I wouldn’t risk my child around them because it isn’t worth it.

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 10:05

I am genuinely trying to be more open minded; I'm not trying to say what happened n OP's post is a great thing.

I think there are huge issues with the idea that you can identify into a different sex from your birth sex. I have huge concerns about women's spaces, women's sport and child safe guarding. These all depend on the ability to be clear about biological gender - this clarity is being blurred by youthful pangenderism, medical madness, pharmaceutical greed, woke pandering and genuinely badly intentioned sexual predators and adventurers.

It's such a festival of different motivations and the good are mixed in with the bad. Women, children and lesbians are not the winners here.

But I still want to be more open minded as my kids have made me less pedantic. They also share some of my concerns.

But on the positive side women's sport is starting to get its act together. The Tavistock debacle is now reported on and having an impact. Greater awareness of AGP is helping to show why women fear self ID and Access All Areas transwomen.

Women in prison are one of the groups I have huge concerns about where the definition of what a women means is crucial. I still don't think you should be in a cell with a person who is biologically male regardless of how you define your gender.

No one should say penis to a child - obviously - but the debate comes down to people believing that they have a penis and are a woman. Like Eddie Izzard.

It does matter.

CharlotteBog · 21/06/2024 10:03

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:53

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

Not brain parking, pluralistic society, debating complex issues - all good.

The man should not be exerting his right to those things by talking about his genitals with an unknown child.

I have a teenager. He is accepting of people - he doesn't really question the gender of his mates. He's attracted to females and has lots of friend of both sexes. What he has little time for is people being loud about whatever they're identifying as - just get on with your life.

IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine · 21/06/2024 09:56

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:35

H*ermenmunster
*
I think something said to a child (potentially in good faith) is a world away from a person touching your child in a pool; this kind of correlation is so extreme that it just kills discussion.

It's intellectually lazy - another problem in debating such an emotive subject. People just get triggered into extreme responses.

I feel uncomfortable with biological men in women's clothes full stop. But I do believe in an open expressive society and our present situation is that we do not all agree on what man and woman means.

That's where we are, I was asked to have she/her pronouns on my signature at my last job. This new world isn't going anywhere so we need to find ways to deal with it - that's all I'm saying.

We obviously have to continue to be vigilant at the pool.

1] touching a child in a pool inappropriately is not legal

2] wearing a dress to a party is legal

3] saying penis to a child is not sexual assault

We are here - so we need to engage with where we are realistically. Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

I don't want to live in that world either.

Unless you see a time where we will ban male bodied people from wearing dresses?

You are the only one who seems to have an issue with him wearing a dress. No one on this thread has said anything about banning men from wearing dresses! They are saying men should be 'banned' from claiming they are women and from talking about their penises to 6 year olds.

OneTC · 21/06/2024 09:53

BobbyBiscuits · 20/06/2024 18:53

@Emotionalsupportviper I didn't take it that OPs colleague was 'perving' on her child. If that were the case then HR and even the police should be involved. He was inappropriate in language but that's different from perving!?

Edited

When you present as your fetish, then everyone who participates in it is doing some kind of low level sex act on you. The sex I have is pretty central to who I am but I don't try and get everyone else involved. If I wanted other people involved, that'd be fine, there are places I could go and do that, but there wouldn't be a 6 year old there.

hermenmumster · 21/06/2024 09:46

@Caerulea thank you for your comments it is interesting.

I guess i need to emphasise my use of the word "might" here . This person might have AGP. And for me and my boundaries the prospect of someone who "might " have AGP is enough for me to keep my kids away from them.

Similarly if someone "might" be a paedophile, it is enough for me to keep away.

And yes, if they weren't a sexual fetishist and simply a bearded hirsute person wearing a dress , I would be making an assumption about them, that some could view as unfair. But I guess that is personal judgment and I would take the risk of perhaps getting it wrong sometimes

OP posts:
bombastix · 21/06/2024 09:26

Honestly I would say that the man in this scenario could have answered “I like the dress”. But otherwise his response was dire. Why do people think children need that explanation if that is what it was?

Eejitmum101 · 21/06/2024 09:25

Don’t have much to say but agree with everything @Italianita said said
goodluck OP

FOJN · 21/06/2024 09:21

Allshallbewell2021 · 21/06/2024 08:53

A biologically male bodied person (man) wearing a dress is not a demonstration of sexual fetish nor of mental illness.

This has not been established in law or medicine. Let's not park our brains.

Sexuality and mental health is far more complicated than that over- simplification.

I believe in an open society and by debating the issues we will find better solutions. A pluralistic society means we have to live with people we disagree with. Unless you like the look of real dictatorships?

I'm not saying I find anything easy or comfortable in these issues. Far from it.

Do none of you have teenagers?

Do you mean a man wearing a dress is in itself not evidence of a fetish? I agree, however in some cases it is, transvestic disorder is in the DSM 5. So yes it has been established in medicine that cross dressing can be a paraphilic disorder if certain criteria are met.

The law may use the expertise of qualified mental health professionals when required but it's remit does not extend to diagnosing mental health conditions so there is nothing for the law to establish here. We already have laws to cover behaviour which may arise from a sexual paraphilia.

No one has parked their brains but there is such as thing as being so open minded you run the risk of your brain falling out.

minipie · 21/06/2024 09:16

I cannot understand why someone who truly wishes to be a woman and be seen as such, would have a beard?

It does seem that in this person’s case it’s far more likely to be about wearing women’s clothes than actually wanting to be female.

I support breaking down stereotypes and I have no issues with a man wearing a dress (as long as it’s a work-event appropriate one) but in that case his response ought to have been “Because I like wearing dresses” rather than “I used to be a man and now I’m a woman”. But I guess “I like wearing dresses” wouldn’t get the same praise and protection as being trans.

And obviously no need to mention willies either way.